Received: from mail-pb0-f64.google.com ([209.85.160.64]:32831) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UiReY-0002W5-HB for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 31 May 2013 08:54:18 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f64.google.com with SMTP id wz12sf484421pbc.19 for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 08:53:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-ymail-osg :x-yahoo-smtp:x-rocket-received:subject:references:from:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:mime-version:x-mailer:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Gq5pv7nxfYkUjkZeduBGuBnRdi3cutfv/R8/q3IMssc=; b=P3mGvCi3Hp3+9HF+Uw6Jp5FBRUHBlWNYAR2e1BFBa513IjOwNSoU/6pV8SdK8pFPp6 rTMAKqEWdP1hrSpLskmsR/jkPCzq8l9AtdZF9P4cKZI5HBZeZVWgq7VhSkp1PXB+3zuz Cqaf8u12LCPG1hlYzuWP6YPglZSip6Goww+HbsuMvqMqBfhsn0CMzrWMtqP1vQO0dnQn bvSb56O1REsDd5V/0RNjqXa6tY5hQay3D5yKDCHJyR6SMv3GrtKfmFadaWS0PnDip6BC mz2mLn79Z6kwv8uneOgRTdmpZsniGgMPxSGsDfw8575+InXhldmKqpgjTiaVvolFp3pd lETA== X-Received: by 10.50.56.6 with SMTP id w6mr542070igp.0.1370015639537; Fri, 31 May 2013 08:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.110.74 with SMTP id hy10ls694862igb.41.canary; Fri, 31 May 2013 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.43.168 with SMTP id x8mr3413462igl.6.1370015638880; Fri, 31 May 2013 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm38-vm8.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm38-vm8.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com. [98.138.229.152]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g11si205185igh.3.2013.05.31.08.53.58 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 31 May 2013 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.229.152 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.229.152; Received: from [98.138.90.53] by nm38.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 May 2013 15:53:58 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.46] by tm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 May 2013 15:53:58 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 May 2013 15:53:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 287083.67890.bm@smtp114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: X1AFNuUVM1m30j5fJgt4JYU.g8dQfx7dsa4JxYkq__nvIzQ 6Gyv9TLGNezzu4db3MdygeYrzfpUZ72zlXoAvjQkZMdYa7qvneghlsSfQMx4 srUTipQWEYYiNxHIiaAl9DfiLn9nakY80gpw75WAfEzXFaTTUKhnjy4a_7wU HxO.gd6V0PTBI_8jAASZAsojpFz7a_fJoneXhH0DXuIOBXY64lV85tiXlxsM POSXqH1NsXpVFGAFiQfZMzdOIcoBKMQ5DTvhV_m2_uWWSIQ8uyerggsiNlAe xxPriQ9YZKYJGl3ROOgHvXNEwhFQuzwrGSLzB397w0POtSvf7BBOs2leIUkJ X3S55a9uvBpMiLdivjmKwwUSIlrqxMv.BFm4.fFED6ty1GWh_bz2kogmchr7 tr6EHslsA0qTN3gKSHzpW8k4VggnKsjDZh3CqzIZSeWJLBY_542ER_yhkmeu RMnZEqqv79.o0r6b_SpKnjxmnukuHAbsN5bsmcN.m9RT5qmBS9iA7X8STCHN Tgx5pt0TJTVX4Pp3AKif7UIQJJPTGHsmVf9N2Jm2ONnRfYEB85c6tTbPdOb. 5mgxOZs48gnoxSAz4EKL2Rf7YiHsaDPcQGpca9sDYVB7H3ojIAWPDoWJoo50 5.KfqMncO116zCI9ZT7bcpRn5lhcOlX6mBhCAdzMaYCaygJ.yVvTDuFS0joi GELEHergbgIk7Tr0aQ6aTv9Xeej1CSC4MRoGWj.UEebQTqtdSb31U_0ww4kJ MNipbiw-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-Rocket-Received: from [192.168.1.64] (kali9putra@99.92.108.194 with ) by smtp114.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2013 08:53:58 -0700 PDT Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> <51A87231.9010305@lojban.org> <8407ee5f-b2b5-4f37-b97a-f6ab106e54f8@googlegroups.com> From: "John E. Clifford" In-Reply-To: <8407ee5f-b2b5-4f37-b97a-f6ab106e54f8@googlegroups.com> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 09:18:12 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.229.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-A516039B-DE56-44EA-BDFA-79103F6E8381 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Spam_score: 1.1 X-Spam_score_int: 11 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: To reiterate, the notion SAE comes from Whorf and plays a significant role in various papers which came to form his hypothesis. The list of surface grammatical and lexical features listed below are only peripherally relevant to a languages status as SAE, though more so than where it is spoken. [...] Content analysis details: (1.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --Apple-Mail-A516039B-DE56-44EA-BDFA-79103F6E8381 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 To reiterate, the notion SAE comes from Whorf and plays a significant role = in various papers which came to form his hypothesis. The list of surface g= rammatical and lexical features listed below are only peripherally relevant= to a languages status as SAE, though more so than where it is spoken. Sent from my iPad On May 31, 2013, at 5:32, la arxokuna wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote: > la arxokuna wrote:=20 > > Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > No.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > A cat which is black =3D black cat=20 >=20 > Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as= =20 > is more evident if you try to reverse the identity. A black cat may=20 > also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a=20 > white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible=20 > relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness.= =20 >=20 > I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri=20 > joi blabi=20 >=20 > > All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Lojban is not an SAE language.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien and= =20 > > not usable by SAE-speakers.=20 >=20 > Lojban is alien in several senses.=20 >=20 > I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European=20 > It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually= =20 > apply to Lojban.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I did a part of it three weeks ago. >=20 > I found an article by Haspelmath (whose works i rate very high) which eve= n got into Wikipedia. I added notes in square brackets of whether each feat= ure is possible in Lojban but you can check it in your projects. >=20 > Haspelmath (2001) lists further features characteristic of European langu= ages (but also found elsewhere): > verb-initial order in yes/no questions; [optionally possible in Lojban] > comparative inflection of adjectives (e.g. English bigger); [optionally p= ossible in Lojban] > conjunction A, B and C; [no, needs extra {ke ... ke'e} brackets for nesti= ng, the default is "A and B and C"] > syncretism of comitative and instrumental cases (e.g. English with my fri= ends vs. with a knife); [terrible polysemy, but comitative is vague enough = to be used instead of instrumental, so yes, possible] > suppletivism in second vs. two; [of course not, it's stupid and has mostl= y historical explanations] > no distinction between alienable (e.g. legal property) and inalienable (e= .g. body part) possession; [possible with {pe}] > no distinction between inclusive and exclusive first-person plural pronou= ns ("we and you" vs."we and not you"); [not possible yet, always distinguis= hable, probably the definition ofSAE "we" should be "I and other people, op= tionally including the listener". {za'u mi} is a possible solution although= doubted by some] > no productive usage of reduplication; [yes, not used] > topic and focus expressed by intonation and word order; [possible with in= tonation; possible by word order, which is probably an universal] > word order subject=96verb=96object; [yes, by default] > only one gerund, preference for finite subordinate clauses; [well, one ge= rund is definitely possible] > specific "neither-nor" construction; [not very specific, a part of a neat= conjunctive system in Lojban] > phrasal adverbs (e.g. English already, still, not yet); [can be seen as a= dvebrs] > tendency towards replacement of past tense by the perfect.~ [pragmaticall= y possible, but only as a tendency in the community, not as a rule] >=20 >=20 > =20 > We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and=20 > inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.=20 >=20 > SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.=20 >=20 > > *sumti=20 > >=20 > > {mlatu} is a verb.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > *selbri=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer=20 > > people are willing to learn Lojban.=20 >=20 > But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,=20 > rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.=20 >=20 > > Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologies= =20 > > for the same language.=20 >=20 > If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does=20 > not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is=20 > used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology.=20 >=20 > lojbab=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > =20 > =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --Apple-Mail-A516039B-DE56-44EA-BDFA-79103F6E8381 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
To reiterate, the notion = SAE comes from Whorf and plays a significant role in various papers which c= ame to form his hypothesis.  The list of surface grammatical and lexic= al features listed below are only peripherally relevant to a languages stat= us as SAE,  though more so than where it is spoken.

Sent= from my iPad

On May 31, 2013, at 5:32, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= wrote:



On F= riday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
la arxokuna wrote:
>         Yes, and relative clauses are adjectiv= es.
>
>
>     No.
>
>
> A cat which is black =3D black cat

Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as= =20
is more evident if you try to reverse the identity.  A black cat m= ay=20
also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a= =20
white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible=20
relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness= .

I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri= =20
joi blabi

>         All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban= is no exception.
>
>
>     Lojban is not an SAE language.
>
>
> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alie= n and
> not usable by SAE-speakers.

Lojban is alien in several senses.

I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually= =20
apply to Lojban.




I found an article by Haspelmath (whose works i = rate very high) which even got into Wikipedia. I added notes in square brac= kets of whether each feature is possible in Lojban but you can check it in = your projects.

Haspelmath (2001) lists further features characteristic of European= languages (but also found elsewhere):
  1. verb-initial order in yes/no questions; [optionally possi= ble in Lojban]
  2. c= omparative inflection of adjectives (e.g. English bigger); = ;[optionally possible in Lojban]
  3. conjunction A, B and C; [no, needs extra {ke .= .. ke'e} brackets for nesting, the default is "A and B and C"]
  4. syncretism of instrumental case= s (e.g. English with my friends vs. with a knife); [terrible polysemy, but comitative is vague en= ough to be used instead of instrumental, so yes, possible]
  5. suppletivism in = ;second vs. two; [of course not, it's stupid a= nd has mostly historical explanations]
  6. no distinction between alienable (e.g. legal propert= y) and inalienable (e.g. body part) po= ssession; [possible with {pe}]
  7. no distinction between inclusive and exclusive fi= rst-person plural pronouns ("we and you" vs."we and not you"); [not possibl= e yet, always distinguishable, probably the definition ofSAE "we" shoul= d be "I and other people, optionally including the listener". {za'u mi} is = a possible solution although doubted by some]
  8. no productive usage of reduplicatio= n; [yes, not used]
  9. topic and focus expressed by intonation and word order; [possible with intonation; p= ossible by word order, which is probably an universal]
  10. word order subject=96verb=96object; [yes, by default]
  11. only one gerund, preferen= ce for finite subordinate clauses; [well, one gerund is definitely possible= ]
  12. specific "neit= her-nor" construction; [not very specific, a part of a neat conjunctive sys= tem in Lojban]
  13. p= hrasal adverbs (e.g. English already, still, <= i>not yet); [can be seen as advebrs]
  14. tendency towards replacement of past tense=  by the perfect.~ [pragmatically possible, but o= nly as a tendency in the community, not as a rule]

=

 
We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and=20
inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.

SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.

>     *sumti
>
>         {mlatu} is a verb.
>
>
>     *selbri
>
>
>
> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer
> people are willing to learn Lojban.

But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,=20
rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.

> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminol= ogies
> for the same language.

If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does= =20
not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is=20
used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology.

lojbab


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--Apple-Mail-A516039B-DE56-44EA-BDFA-79103F6E8381--