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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 21:04:17 +0200
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
> selpa'i wrote:
>> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
>>> If I saw people making use of place structures in their brivla names, I
>>> might be more sympathetic.  But they don't, and I suspect that
>>> absolutely no one thinks about the x2 of tsani when they use that as his
>>> name.
>>
>> Indeed, no one does, because {la} removes the meaning from the brivla so
>> that only the string of letters/sounds is relevant. The form may hint at
>> the original meaning of the brivla, but I doubt anyone thinks of a sky
>> when they refer to {la tsani}, they think of *him*.
>>
>> I feel the same way about my own name. The name "selpa'i" is just a
>> string of letters that I like the sound of. The meaning of the brivla is
>> nice, but I would not claim that {mi selpa'i}, or in other words, I
>> would not want people to infer {mi selpa'i} from {mi'e la selpa'i} or
>> anything like that. And I wouldn't want to have to answer a question
>> like "la selpa'i be ma". My name is not "selpa'i be <whatever>", it's
>> "selpa'i".
>
> All of this sounds like a good reason to not merge cmene and brivla.

I don't follow.

>  >{zo X} means the *word* X, not its meaning.
>
>  >The place structure completely disappears.
>
> But your name need not be marked with "la" or "zo", doi selpa'i (which
> could be vocatively referring to someone with that name, or to someone
> being affectionately called 'beloved' with an implicit x2, probably of
> the speaker.  When Marc Antony vocatively addresses "Friends, Romans,
> countrymen" in Shakespeare, those are descriptions and not names and
> would be brivla and not cmene.

That is why this ambiguity in gadri-less vocatives with brivla is not 
very popular (probably quite a minority view, in fact). To me, {COI/DOI 
broda} is always equivalent to {COI/DOI le broda}, and you have to use 
{la} explicitly to get {coi la broda}. There is just too big a 
difference between {la} and {lo/le} to have COI be ambiguous about it.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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