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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 13:22:36 -0600
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Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>wrote:

> Jonathan Jones wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> I was thinking of the dog I've read about in some Lojban texts who was
>> called {la cribe} because his English name was "Bear", and his English
>> name was "Bear" due to his owner thinking he bore a striking resemblance
>> to one. I would assume had this jbopre been a native speaker of Lojban,
>> this resemblance would have caused the dog to be named {la cribe} by his
>> owner directly, and not merely as a translation of the English.
>>
>
> When I created the place structures, I specifically included metaphorical
> meanings which would support this sort of thing (calling a dog "cribe"),
> see "balji" and "besna" and "solji" for three of the many that call out a
> metaphor.  But by and large people did not like that sort of metaphorical
> extension of meaning, and I was strongly criticized.  (But no one ever
> explicitly proposed removing them).  So I believe that the presumption came
> to be that something could not be described using besna unless it had
> correspondences for both x1 and x2.


I believe the stance on that has shifted with time. I think even pe'a has
fallen out of use for most.

     This whole cmevla->brivla push seems to me to be an effort to make
> cmene
>     less outcast, more useful.
>

I should note that cmene are supposed to be outcast in a way.  People talk
> about type 3 and type 4 fu'ivla, with the latter being thought by some to
> be the most Lojbanic/least borrowed in having cut itself off from the word
> it was borrowed from.  Meanwhile cmene were type 2 fu'ivla - not even as
> Lojbanic as a type 3 borrowing. (Type 1 borrowings special-quoted
> non-Lojban text names).
>
> Names do have a role in language, so no one would try to eliminate them.
>  But since they aren't predicates, they are less Lojbanic.
>
>
>  With the default place structure, I don't see any real "meaningful" use,
>> other than to remove to words {me la} from bridi in which they are used.
>> IIRC, however, the proposal allows for defining a unique place
>> structure, in much the way lujvo and fu'ivla are, and that obviously
>> would make those cmene which are meaningful use- although I do see it as
>> a potential for lazy word-crafting, since why would anyone define a
>> lujvo/fu'ivla for "unicorn" when they could just say {.unicorn.} and
>> give /it/ the place structure of {pavyseljirna}?
>>
>
> I have used "me la iunikorn", but never to my knowledge without the mela
> which is to me something essential to the "logicalness" of Lojban.
>
> There was a debate in the early Loglan years about the phrase "Chrysler
> car", which in fact led to the invention of "me" (which has the same
> meaning in TLI Loglan as in Lojban).  "me la kraislr. karce" is a
> historically noteworthy phrase.  (pc/John Clifford may have more edifying
> stories about usage of early names, since this invention was really before
> my time)
>
>
>      "la jbogu'e" still has that place structure, as does la tsani have
>>     its own.  Lojban simply doesn't work without place structures.
>>
>> Yes of course, and I don't use {la jbogu'e} with the intent of removing
>> those implicit places. The fact that when I say {la jbogu'e} without
>> them does not mean I am not aware that I implicitly filling them with
>> {zo'e}.
>>
>
> Good.  But compare this with selpa'i's response to me today where he says
> that his name is "selpa'i" and NOT "selpa'i be X2", which is non-Lojbanic
> if not anti-Lojbanic.
>

Yes. I very much disagree with his reasoning.


> That dog named cribe has to allow for the implicit places to be part of
> the name.  Lojban is more than an aesthetic collection of sounds (I hope,
> especially since I long ago decided that some aspects of the language sound
> were aesthetically displeasing to me - especially that dominance of
> fricatives that makes speaking Lojban quickly a little like pronouncing
> "she sells seashells by the seashore" for me, and I am especially poor at
> those sorts of tonguetwisters)
>
>
>      I've thought of the Lojbanic "cmevla" as you call them as being
>>     somewhat akin to Internet handles, which are sometimes identifying,
>>     but as often as not are obscuring of the real identity.  I didn't
>>     choose to call myself "lojbab".  People started calling me that, and
>>     they weren't Lojbanists, and it became how I was most commonly
>>     known.  It was also useful because at the time there were more than
>>     one "Bob" active in the community. But there is no real meaning, and
>>     hence no predication, and thus I can have all kinds of fun with the
>>     fact that I have nothing to do with logical-soap, whatever that
>>     would be.
>>
>>
>>         I mean, what would be the cmene for {la dansu kansa be lo labno}?
>>
>>
>>     That would in fact be an example of a description being used
>>     legitimately as a name (not having seen the movie, so I don't know
>>     how well it applies), since it invokes a predication, which can be
>>     manipulated linguistically using the tools of Lojban as can any
>>     predication.
>>
>>
>> Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly. What you're saying
>> is, if a person was named something like the above, you would consider
>> it a name, even though it is not a cmene?
>>
>
> I would consider it a description, which if marked with "la" makes it a
> explicitly a name.  What semantic distinctions arise from identifying
> something as a name as opposed to a normal description, I am not sure (but
> it would surely encompass the relevant place structures).  But then I was
> always trying to be as noncommittal as possible with respect to semantics
> in designing the language.


Yes, you're very good at that. :)


> lojbab
>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--001a11c3bbc8a041f304de0889fa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Robert LeCheva=
lier <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_=
blank">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">Jonathan Jones wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
I was thinking of the dog I&#39;ve read about in some Lojban texts who was<=
br>
called {la cribe} because his English name was &quot;Bear&quot;, and his En=
glish<br>
name was &quot;Bear&quot; due to his owner thinking he bore a striking rese=
mblance<br>
to one. I would assume had this jbopre been a native speaker of Lojban,<br>
this resemblance would have caused the dog to be named {la cribe} by his<br=
>
owner directly, and not merely as a translation of the English.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
When I created the place structures, I specifically included metaphorical m=
eanings which would support this sort of thing (calling a dog &quot;cribe&q=
uot;), see &quot;balji&quot; and &quot;besna&quot; and &quot;solji&quot; fo=
r three of the many that call out a metaphor. =A0But by and large people di=
d not like that sort of metaphorical extension of meaning, and I was strong=
ly criticized. =A0(But no one ever explicitly proposed removing them). =A0S=
o I believe that the presumption came to be that something could not be des=
cribed using besna unless it had correspondences for both x1 and x2.</block=
quote>
<div class=3D"im">=A0<br>I believe the stance on that has shifted with time=
. I think even pe&#39;a has fallen out of use for most.<br><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0 =A0 This whole cmevla-&gt;brivla push seems to me to be an effort to ma=
ke cmene<br>
=A0 =A0 less outcast, more useful.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I should note that cmene are supposed to be outcast in a way. =A0People tal=
k about type 3 and type 4 fu&#39;ivla, with the latter being thought by som=
e to be the most Lojbanic/least borrowed in having cut itself off from the =
word it was borrowed from. =A0Meanwhile cmene were type 2 fu&#39;ivla - not=
 even as Lojbanic as a type 3 borrowing. (Type 1 borrowings special-quoted =
non-Lojban text names).<br>

<br>
Names do have a role in language, so no one would try to eliminate them. =
=A0But since they aren&#39;t predicates, they are less Lojbanic.<div class=
=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
With the default place structure, I don&#39;t see any real &quot;meaningful=
&quot; use,<br>
other than to remove to words {me la} from bridi in which they are used.<br=
>
IIRC, however, the proposal allows for defining a unique place<br>
structure, in much the way lujvo and fu&#39;ivla are, and that obviously<br=
>
would make those cmene which are meaningful use- although I do see it as<br=
>
a potential for lazy word-crafting, since why would anyone define a<br>
lujvo/fu&#39;ivla for &quot;unicorn&quot; when they could just say {.unicor=
n.} and<br>
give /it/ the place structure of {pavyseljirna}?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I have used &quot;me la iunikorn&quot;, but never to my knowledge without t=
he mela which is to me something essential to the &quot;logicalness&quot; o=
f Lojban.<br>
<br>
There was a debate in the early Loglan years about the phrase &quot;Chrysle=
r car&quot;, which in fact led to the invention of &quot;me&quot; (which ha=
s the same meaning in TLI Loglan as in Lojban). =A0&quot;me la kraislr. kar=
ce&quot; is a historically noteworthy phrase. =A0(pc/John Clifford may have=
 more edifying stories about usage of early names, since this invention was=
 really before my time)<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0 =A0 &quot;la jbogu&#39;e&quot; still has that place structure, as does =
la tsani have<br>
=A0 =A0 its own. =A0Lojban simply doesn&#39;t work without place structures=
.<br>
<br>
Yes of course, and I don&#39;t use {la jbogu&#39;e} with the intent of remo=
ving<br>
those implicit places. The fact that when I say {la jbogu&#39;e} without<br=
>
them does not mean I am not aware that I implicitly filling them with<br>
{zo&#39;e}.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Good. =A0But compare this with selpa&#39;i&#39;s response to me today where=
 he says that his name is &quot;selpa&#39;i&quot; and NOT &quot;selpa&#39;i=
 be X2&quot;, which is non-Lojbanic if not anti-Lojbanic.<br></blockquote>
<div><br>Yes. I very much disagree with his reasoning.<br>=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">

That dog named cribe has to allow for the implicit places to be part of the=
 name. =A0Lojban is more than an aesthetic collection of sounds (I hope, es=
pecially since I long ago decided that some aspects of the language sound w=
ere aesthetically displeasing to me - especially that dominance of fricativ=
es that makes speaking Lojban quickly a little like pronouncing &quot;she s=
ells seashells by the seashore&quot; for me, and I am especially poor at th=
ose sorts of tonguetwisters)<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0 =A0 I&#39;ve thought of the Lojbanic &quot;cmevla&quot; as you call the=
m as being<br>
=A0 =A0 somewhat akin to Internet handles, which are sometimes identifying,=
<br>
=A0 =A0 but as often as not are obscuring of the real identity. =A0I didn&#=
39;t<br>
=A0 =A0 choose to call myself &quot;lojbab&quot;. =A0People started calling=
 me that, and<br>
=A0 =A0 they weren&#39;t Lojbanists, and it became how I was most commonly<=
br>
=A0 =A0 known. =A0It was also useful because at the time there were more th=
an<br>
=A0 =A0 one &quot;Bob&quot; active in the community. But there is no real m=
eaning, and<br>
=A0 =A0 hence no predication, and thus I can have all kinds of fun with the=
<br>
=A0 =A0 fact that I have nothing to do with logical-soap, whatever that<br>
=A0 =A0 would be.<br>
<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I mean, what would be the cmene for {la dansu kansa be lo l=
abno}?<br>
<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 That would in fact be an example of a description being used<br>
=A0 =A0 legitimately as a name (not having seen the movie, so I don&#39;t k=
now<br>
=A0 =A0 how well it applies), since it invokes a predication, which can be<=
br>
=A0 =A0 manipulated linguistically using the tools of Lojban as can any<br>
=A0 =A0 predication.<br>
<br>
<br>
Let me make sure I&#39;m understanding this correctly. What you&#39;re sayi=
ng<br>
is, if a person was named something like the above, you would consider<br>
it a name, even though it is not a cmene?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I would consider it a description, which if marked with &quot;la&quot; make=
s it a explicitly a name. =A0What semantic distinctions arise from identify=
ing something as a name as opposed to a normal description, I am not sure (=
but it would surely encompass the relevant place structures). =A0But then I=
 was always trying to be as noncommittal as possible with respect to semant=
ics in designing the language.</blockquote>
<div><br>Yes, you&#39;re very good at that. :)<br>=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">lojbab<br></div></di=
v></blockquote>
</div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#=
39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(=
Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

<p></p>

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