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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 01:42:58 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] A Short Story
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On 31 May 2013 20:16, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la tsani cu cusku di'e
>
>  Hello everyone, I've just written a short story (~1000 words) in Lojban.
>>
>
> Yay, more Lojban text! :)
>
>
>
The pleasure is all mine! This is actually a "translation" from an old text
of mine originally written in French. To be honest though, I've lost the
original text, and I was going from memory, so I think that it's safe to
say that it's really an original work in Lojban.


>  Please tell me what you think!
>>
>
> *SPOILERS*
>
> It's a nice read, indeed. The story takes a rather sudden, and ultimately
> sad turn, despite the easygoing introduction.
>
> My impressions, in bullet points, and uncensored:
>
> * The comma as a structure mark seems to be taking root in lo jbogu'e
>

It's just such a nice thing to use to tell the listener, "OK here's the
first sumti now that that huge tag is closed up". What's odd to me is that
the pause *sounds* nicer if we place is *before* the kei, e.g. {.i ca lo nu
mi ze'u tadni lo termu'eske noi mi je'a se cinri ke'a, kei mi mutce lo ni
ce'u citka}.


> * I see you're using {je} to connect sumti, but still used {gi'e} in
> another place. You also use {.e} somewhere. Maybe a remnant of your recent
> adoption of the proposal.
>

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether I wanted to use GIJA or CLL-connectives. I
think I'll fix it up all over to use GIJA.


> * Ah, {nonselkansa}. I see that you, like me, are reluctant to use
> {nonkansa} for "alone", despite its being shorter. {nonkansa} seems to just
> *scream* {kansa no da} (which even is a potentially useful meaning to
> have), so seeing {nonselkansa} here felt quite homey.
>

*Absolutely.* {nonkansa} just doesn't mean the right thing to me neither.


> * I'm still not a fan of {goi} in literary works, but style is style, so I
> won't complain. However, the assigned ko'a and ko'e only get used three
> times each, and close vicinity of the assignment.
>

I agree, {goi} isn't pretty. It's convenient for encyclopedic works. I just
didn't want to give the delivery men or the father names, but it turns out
that I had to name the father. I think I'll remove {goi} from the text
altogether.

(I wrote the text in one sitting, and without much post-production, so the
linked text is really an "alpha version" if you will.)


> * I saw some {me X mei} that surprised me, and I'm not sure they are
> correct/intentional: {lo me lo vorme mei cu tavysi'u}, for one. (I'd
> welcome some more discussion in the me SUMTI mei thread, because I've got
> some more things to talk about, but I understand that you are busy). Also,
> for some reason, there is some weird beauty to {mei} in {me X mei}
> (although I couldn't make sense of it), but I might simply need some sleep.
> It's really just a visual thing with {mei}, .u'e
>

{mei} is beautiful after all! ta'onai, it was supposed to be {moi}; this
occurance of {mei} is actually just a simple typo. There is one place where
I considered using {me X mei}, but I can't quite remember where... When I
look over the text again, maybe I'll edit it in :)


> * I like that you're taking more liberties (maybe because it's a literary
> work). The style is a bit more easygoing than your usual style.
>

My IRC style and my literary style are extremely different. Also, I tried
to write this text as quickly as possible, without overthinking any of the
bridi. In turn, they tend to be simple. (None of those 50-word sentences
like in la .xacacin.!)


> * It seems you are now on board with the na-scope.
>

I've been on board for a while now, actually. I just got used to using naku
when I was undecided, and I still use naku a lot. Even in this text, don't
I use {kakne be naku} somewhere? (I have some kind of incomprehensible
appreciation for {kakne be naku co broda} as a formula.)


> * Exclamation points! (in sai or cai sentences, could easily catch on)
>

Well, considering as the point of attitudinals is to match up tone and
text, in cases where sai and cai are present, I feel that exclamation marks
are more than welcome :)


> * You tend to place {.i} after {lu}. I tend to never do so.
>

I've just internalized {.i} as "begin sentence" rather than "separate
sentence" on a too-deep level at this point. I can't imagine people not
saying {.i} when they begin to talk, at the occasional exception of
attitudinals and GOhA.


> * The {be} maneuver to rearrange places doesn't cause trouble. (One of my
> recent posts on my blog seems relevant though, "the x2 rule")
>

I've read your article, and I have a slightly different stance (at least
with regards to {be}) which I explain in my post "Advanced Place Structure
Mangling".

* {fi'o se casnu lo na'e te jimpe be fi lu'a lo mensi simxu} was amusing,
> in a good way. Obviously I wasn't amused by what happened after that.
>

I was going for something along the lines of {lo makcu prenu cu no roi
jimpe} :P


> * Lots of _nicknames_ in the story (sorry, couldn't resist :P)
>

Hehe, you're right, I should have called them {.murses.} and {.kensan.}.


> * {lo vacri cu binxo lo ka se rirxe lo titla dukse ckafi} is beautiful.
>

I just love using {rirxe} metaphorically :) I do it in my translation of
The Princess and the Pea, although there it is much less metaphorical.


>
> Okay, that's it. Time for some sleep!
>
> Thank you for sharing your story,
>

Thanks a bunch for your comments! They're very much appreciated. .i'o


.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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--e89a8ff1cdcc600dbb04de11354f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 31 May 2013 20:16, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">

la tsani cu cusku di&#39;e<div class=3D"im"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hello everyone, I&#39;ve just written a short story (~1000 words) in Lojban=
.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Yay, more Lojban text! :)<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>The pleasure is all mine! =
This is actually a &quot;translation&quot; from an old text of mine origina=
lly written in French. To be honest though, I&#39;ve lost the original text=
, and I was going from memory, so I think that it&#39;s safe to say that it=
&#39;s really an original work in Lojban.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Please tell me what you think!<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
*SPOILERS*<br>
<br>
It&#39;s a nice read, indeed. The story takes a rather sudden, and ultimate=
ly sad turn, despite the easygoing introduction.<br>
<br>
My impressions, in bullet points, and uncensored:<br>
<br>
* The comma as a structure mark seems to be taking root in lo jbogu&#39;e<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>It&#39;s just such a nice thing to=
 use to tell the listener, &quot;OK here&#39;s the first sumti now that tha=
t huge tag is closed up&quot;. What&#39;s odd to me is that the pause *soun=
ds* nicer if we place is *before* the kei, e.g. {.i ca lo nu mi ze&#39;u ta=
dni lo termu&#39;eske noi mi je&#39;a se cinri ke&#39;a, kei mi mutce lo ni=
 ce&#39;u citka}.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* I see you&#39;re using {je} to connect sumti, but still used {gi&#39;e} i=
n another place. You also use {.e} somewhere. Maybe a remnant of your recen=
t adoption of the proposal.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>

Yeah, I wasn&#39;t sure whether I wanted to use GIJA or CLL-connectives. I =
think I&#39;ll fix it up all over to use GIJA.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">


* Ah, {nonselkansa}. I see that you, like me, are reluctant to use {nonkans=
a} for &quot;alone&quot;, despite its being shorter. {nonkansa} seems to ju=
st *scream* {kansa no da} (which even is a potentially useful meaning to ha=
ve), so seeing {nonselkansa} here felt quite homey.<br>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>*Absolutely.* {nonkansa} just doesn&=
#39;t mean the right thing to me neither.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">


* I&#39;m still not a fan of {goi} in literary works, but style is style, s=
o I won&#39;t complain. However, the assigned ko&#39;a and ko&#39;e only ge=
t used three times each, and close vicinity of the assignment.<br></blockqu=
ote>

<div><br></div><div style>I agree, {goi} isn&#39;t pretty. It&#39;s conveni=
ent for encyclopedic works. I just didn&#39;t want to give the delivery men=
 or the father names, but it turns out that I had to name the father. I thi=
nk I&#39;ll remove {goi} from the text altogether.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>(I wrote the text in one sitting, and witho=
ut much post-production, so the linked text is really an &quot;alpha versio=
n&quot; if you will.)</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


* I saw some {me X mei} that surprised me, and I&#39;m not sure they are co=
rrect/intentional: {lo me lo vorme mei cu tavysi&#39;u}, for one. (I&#39;d =
welcome some more discussion in the me SUMTI mei thread, because I&#39;ve g=
ot some more things to talk about, but I understand that you are busy). Als=
o, for some reason, there is some weird beauty to {mei} in {me X mei} (alth=
ough I couldn&#39;t make sense of it), but I might simply need some sleep. =
It&#39;s really just a visual thing with {mei}, .u&#39;e<br>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>{mei} is beautiful after all! ta&#39=
;onai, it was supposed to be {moi}; this occurance of {mei} is actually jus=
t a simple typo. There is one place where I considered using {me X mei}, bu=
t I can&#39;t quite remember where... When I look over the text again, mayb=
e I&#39;ll edit it in :)</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* I like that you&#39;re taking more liberties (maybe because it&#39;s a li=
terary work). The style is a bit more easygoing than your usual style.<br><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div style>My IRC style and my literary style ar=
e extremely different. Also, I tried to write this text as quickly as possi=
ble, without overthinking any of the bridi. In turn, they tend to be simple=
. (None of those 50-word sentences like in la .xacacin.!)</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* It seems you are now on board with the na-scope.<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div style>I&#39;ve been on board for a while now, actually. I just =
got used to using naku when I was undecided, and I still use naku a lot. Ev=
en in this text, don&#39;t I use {kakne be naku} somewhere? (I have some ki=
nd of incomprehensible appreciation for {kakne be naku co broda} as a formu=
la.)</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* Exclamation points! (in sai or cai sentences, could easily catch on)<br><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Well, considering as the point of att=
itudinals is to match up tone and text, in cases where sai and cai are pres=
ent, I feel that exclamation marks are more than welcome :)</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* You tend to place {.i} after {lu}. I tend to never do so.<br></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div style>I&#39;ve just internalized {.i} as &quot;begin s=
entence&quot; rather than &quot;separate sentence&quot; on a too-deep level=
 at this point. I can&#39;t imagine people not saying {.i} when they begin =
to talk, at the occasional exception of attitudinals and GOhA.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* The {be} maneuver to rearrange places doesn&#39;t cause trouble. (One of =
my recent posts on my blog seems relevant though, &quot;the x2 rule&quot;)<=
br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I&#39;ve read your article, and I=
 have a slightly different stance (at least with regards to {be}) which I e=
xplain in my post &quot;Advanced Place Structure Mangling&quot;.=A0<br>

</div><div style><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* {fi&#39;o se casnu lo na&#39;e te jimpe be fi lu&#39;a lo mensi simxu} wa=
s amusing, in a good way. Obviously I wasn&#39;t amused by what happened af=
ter that.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I was going for somethi=
ng along the lines of {lo makcu prenu cu no roi jimpe} :P</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
* Lots of _nicknames_ in the story (sorry, couldn&#39;t resist :P)<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div style>Hehe, you&#39;re right, I should have cal=
led them {.murses.} and {.kensan.}.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">


* {lo vacri cu binxo lo ka se rirxe lo titla dukse ckafi} is beautiful.<br>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I just love using {rirxe} metaphoric=
ally :) I do it in my translation of The Princess and the Pea, although the=
re it is much less metaphorical.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Okay, that&#39;s it. Time for some sleep!<br>
<br>
Thank you for sharing your story,<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=
>Thanks a bunch for your comments! They&#39;re very much appreciated. .i=
9;o</div><div>=A0</div><div><br></div><div style>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu=
9;o</div>

</div></div></div>

<p></p>

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