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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 08:44:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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________________________________
Basically tidying up.
Names are as vital to a "predicate language" as predicates; the things with=
 holes are
 useless without something to fill the holes, and those can't be all bound =
variables, else we never get down to reference.=A0 So, names are essential,=
 and, for a good formulation, they need to be immediately distinct from pre=
dicates (and variables, the other usually considered essential).=A0 So, Loj=
ban is in fine shape as of now, except for the peculiarity of introducing e=
very name, in its referential use, with {la}, which looks like a gadri (ind=
eed, is one in the grammar).=A0 But names, properly speaking (end in a cons=
onant, maybe surrounded by pauses) don't need a gadri, they are terms by th=
eir nature, just like the pronouns and variable.=A0 One can imagine JCB, no=
ticing that names apply to sets and masses (what he had in the way of plura=
lities) as well as individuals, and having devised forms for these, decide =
that he needed a form for the individuals to complete the pattern matching =
{le} and {lo}and so added the superfluous {la}.=A0 (I
 don't bleieve this story at all.=A0 Although I long ago surrendered my anc=
ient -- including pre-1960 -- Loglan material and so don't know the history=
 of {la}, my belief is that JCB was a crypto Mergist from the beginning, ta=
king names to be predicates of the peculiar autonymous sort and requiring {=
la} to bring them into referential use.)=A0 Well, not quite superfluous, si=
nce it does allow predicates to be used as names in just the way the Mergis=
t would have them. Presumably {doi} and the like work as well to distinguis=
h what follows as a nonce name.

Loglan {me} is not quite the same as Lojban (assuming that is now pinned do=
wn a bit).=A0 Its original use was to attach names into compounds: a 'me la=
 Djenis' procedure for deriving new predicates (pre GMR) and, of course, th=
e 'me la me' hole in the grammar.=A0 It expanded somewhat to allow other ar=
guments than names, but always kept the sense of proprietary interest, pert=
aining to in a
 special way.=A0 In short, it was used to incorporate names and then descri=
ptions into "metaphors" (i.e. tanru) as full members on a par with predicat=
es.=A0 But it never came to be a general "related to", nor did it develop a=
 second place, and it certainly never meant "is a member of/ avatar from/ c=
hunk of" (not that these latter are really in Lojban, but they do turn up f=
rom time to time).=A0=20

--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div id=3D"yiv7302107=
95"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times n=
ew roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><div id=3D"yiv730210795">=
<div id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370101161629_63"><div id=3D"yiv7302107=
95yui_3_7_2_31_1370101161629_62" class=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_13701011=
61629_54" style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new r=
oman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><div id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_=
7_2_31_1370098626135_54"><span id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370098626135=
_73"><br></span></div><div><br id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370098626135=
_56"></div>  <div class=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370098626135_58 yiv730=
210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370101161629_55" id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370098=
626135_59" style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;fon=
t-size:12pt;"> <div
 id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370098626135_82" class=3D"yiv730210795yui_=
3_7_2_31_1370098626135_62 yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370101161629_56" style=
=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <=
div id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370098626135_85" class=3D"yiv730210795y=
_msg_container"> <hr size=3D"1"><font id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_137009=
8626135_80" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_137=
0098626135_79"><span id=3D"yiv730210795yui_3_7_2_31_1370098626135_78" style=
=3D"font-weight:bold;"></span></b></font>Basically tidying up.<br>Names are=
 as vital to a "predicate language" as predicates; the things with holes ar=
e
 useless without something to fill the holes, and those can't be all bound =
variables, else we never get down to reference.&nbsp; So, names are essenti=
al, and, for a good formulation, they need to be immediately distinct from =
predicates (and variables, the other usually considered essential).&nbsp; S=
o, Lojban is in fine shape as of now, except for the peculiarity of introdu=
cing every name, in its referential use, with {la}, which looks like a gadr=
i (indeed, is one in the grammar).&nbsp; But names, properly speaking (end =
in a consonant, maybe surrounded by pauses) don't need a gadri, they are te=
rms by their nature, just like the pronouns and variable.&nbsp; One can ima=
gine JCB, noticing that names apply to sets and masses (what he had in the =
way of pluralities) as well as individuals, and having devised forms for th=
ese, decide that he needed a form for the individuals to complete the patte=
rn matching {le} and {lo}and so added the superfluous {la}.&nbsp; (I
 don't bleieve this story at all.&nbsp; Although I long ago surrendered my =
ancient -- including pre-1960 -- Loglan material and so don't know the hist=
ory of {la}, my belief is that JCB was a crypto Mergist from the beginning,=
 taking names to be predicates of the peculiar autonymous sort and requirin=
g {la} to bring them into referential use.)&nbsp; Well, not quite superfluo=
us, since it does allow predicates to be used as names in just the way the =
Mergist would have them. Presumably {doi} and the like work as well to dist=
inguish what follows as a nonce name.<br><br>Loglan {me} is not quite the s=
ame as Lojban (assuming that is now pinned down a bit).&nbsp; Its original =
use was to attach names into compounds: a 'me la Djenis' procedure for deri=
ving new predicates (pre GMR) and, of course, the 'me la me' hole in the gr=
ammar.&nbsp; It expanded somewhat to allow other arguments than names, but =
always kept the sense of proprietary interest, pertaining to in a
 special way.&nbsp; In short, it was used to incorporate names and then des=
criptions into "metaphors" (i.e. tanru) as full members on a par with predi=
cates.&nbsp; But it never came to be a general "related to", nor did it dev=
elop a second place, and it certainly never meant "is a member of/ avatar f=
rom/ chunk of" (not that these latter are really in Lojban, but they do tur=
n up from time to time).&nbsp; <br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></body></html>

<p></p>

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