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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 12:13:36 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] A Short Story
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On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wro=
te:

>
> On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 11:03 AM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>
>> I'd gloss kansa as "mitmachen"/"begleiten" in German, which mean "to
>> accompany, to go along with". And {kansi'u} would still give us a symmet=
ric
>> {kansa}.
>>
>
> OK, let's assume that there is an asymmetry, analogous to one we might
> posit between the x2 and x3 of sumji. lo kansi'u is like lo sumji, lo kan=
sa
> is like lo te sumji and lo se kansa is like lo se sumji. x2 and x3 of jmi=
na
> also seem to have this asymmetry, although "jmina" is given two different
> definitions, one in which x2 is added to x3 and the other in which x2 is
> augmented by x3. "mi jmina lo silna lo cidja" or "mi jmina lo cidja lo
> silna"?
>
> By the above logic, {nonkansa} would mean "accompanying no one", "going
>> along with no one", somewhat in the sense of "withholding support". I'm =
not
>> sure what a concrete usage example could be though, but it feels like th=
ere
>> should be a use for it. (if not, then the sel- could be scrapped from th=
e
>> lujvo). Maybe:
>>
>> da'i mi kansa no da lo nu/ka klama lo kensa
>> "I wouldn't accompany anyone to outer space."
>
>
> You choose to read it as "I wouldn't accompany anyone in *their* journey
> to outer space", but couldn't it also just as well be read as "I wouldn't
> be accompanying anyone in *my* journey to outer space"?
>

"X accompanies Y" means that Y is the main participant, and X is simply
present near Y (or occurs at the same time as Y), so if it's X's journey,
then Y must accompany X, not the other way around. IOW, Y is the primary
participant, and X is secondary. Your second reading conflicts with the
meaning of "accompany".

stevo

Even if there is an asymmetry in kansa, I think both "nonselkansa" and
> "nonkansa" should still mean "alone". In one case, alone by virtue of not
> being joined by anyone else, in the other case by virtue of not joining
> anyone else. If zero is added to a quantity or if that quantity is added =
to
> zero, the result is still the same, even if it is reached by different
> processes.
>
> The full definition in any case requires more that "be no da":
>
> nonkansa: ko'a kansa no da ko'e .ije ko'a ckaji ko'e
> nonselkansa: ko'a se kansa no da ko'e .ije ko'a ckaji ko'e
>
> The second part is necessary because otherwise all we have is a negation
> but no affirmation that ko'a does do something alone.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 11:=
03 AM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" =
target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<div>


=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-=
style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
I&#39;d gloss kansa as &quot;mitmachen&quot;/&quot;begleiten&quot; in Germa=
n, which mean &quot;to accompany, to go along with&quot;. And {kansi&#39;u}=
 would still give us a symmetric {kansa}.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>


</div><div>OK, let&#39;s assume that there is an asymmetry, analogous to on=
e we might posit between the x2 and x3 of sumji. lo kansi&#39;u is like lo =
sumji, lo kansa is like lo te sumji and lo se kansa is like lo se sumji. x2=
 and x3 of jmina also seem to have this asymmetry, although &quot;jmina&quo=
t; is given two different definitions, one in which x2 is added to x3 and t=
he other in which x2 is augmented by x3. &quot;mi jmina lo silna lo cidja&q=
uot; or &quot;mi jmina lo cidja lo silna&quot;?=A0</div>

<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
By the above logic, {nonkansa} would mean &quot;accompanying no one&quot;, =
&quot;going along with no one&quot;, somewhat in the sense of &quot;withhol=
ding support&quot;. I&#39;m not sure what a concrete usage example could be=
 though, but it feels like there should be a use for it. (if not, then the =
sel- could be scrapped from the lujvo). Maybe:<br>


<br>
da&#39;i mi kansa no da lo nu/ka klama lo kensa<br>
&quot;I wouldn&#39;t accompany anyone to outer space.&quot;</blockquote><di=
v><br></div></div><div>You choose to read it as &quot;I wouldn&#39;t accomp=
any anyone in *their* journey to outer space&quot;, but couldn&#39;t it als=
o just as well be read as &quot;I wouldn&#39;t be accompanying anyone in *m=
y* journey to outer space&quot;?=A0</div>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>&quot;X accompanie=
s Y&quot; means that Y is the main participant, and X is simply present nea=
r Y (or occurs at the same time as Y), so if it&#39;s X&#39;s journey, then=
 Y must accompany X, not the other way around. IOW, Y is the primary partic=
ipant, and X is secondary. Your second reading conflicts with the meaning o=
f &quot;accompany&quot;.=A0</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>stevo</div><div style><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">

<div>Even if there is an asymmetry in kansa, I think both &quot;nonselkansa=
&quot; and &quot;nonkansa&quot; should still mean &quot;alone&quot;. In one=
 case, alone by virtue of not being joined by anyone else, in the other cas=
e by virtue of not joining anyone else. If zero is added to a quantity or i=
f that quantity is added to zero, the result is still the same, even if it =
is reached by different processes.=A0</div>


<div><br></div><div>The full definition in any case requires more that &quo=
t;be no da&quot;:</div><div><br></div><div>nonkansa: ko&#39;a kansa no da k=
o&#39;e .ije ko&#39;a ckaji ko&#39;e</div><div>
nonselkansa: ko&#39;a se kansa no da ko&#39;e .ije ko&#39;a ckaji ko&#39;e<=
/div><div><br></div><div>The second part is necessary because otherwise all=
 we have is a negation but no affirmation that ko&#39;a does do something a=
lone.=A0</div>

<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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=A0<br>
=A0<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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