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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 06:02:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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Given my earlier remarks, I think my position has to be that {la .tsani.} h=
as as much to do with the sky as "Smith" has to do with a forge, always all=
owing that a particular user may want to insist on more (as in the {la crib=
e} case often cited).=A0 That is, {la .selpa'i.} is purely denotative and w=
hatever semantics (or grammar, for that matter) {selpa'i} may have are simp=
ly not relevant.=A0 Note, this does not make {selpa'i} a name when it stand=
s alone, only when it is properly marked off, so as to be clearly distinct =
from the predicate {selpa'i}.=A0=20


________________________________
 From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
> selpa'i wrote:
>> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
>>> What semantic distinctions arise from identifying
>>> something as a name as opposed to a normal description, I am not sure
>>> (but it would surely encompass the relevant place structures).
>>=20
>> But {la} doesn't describe. It names. I don't describe Jacob Errington as
>> a sky when I call him by la tsani, and neither does he describe himself
>> as a sky by giving himself that name. It's merely a label used to refer
>> to this individual, nothing more.
>=20
> But "tsani" itself is grammatically a brivla, and implicit
> (grammatically) in "la tsani" is "la tsani be ...".=A0 The places are
> inseparable from the brivla.=A0 That is fundamental to the language.

I agree that places are inseperable from a brivla in that the places are wh=
at the brivla means. All the places together determine the meaning, and usu=
ally, if one or more places aren't present, the meaning of the brivla is di=
fferent. When I use {tsani}, I must be aware that it relates a sky to the p=
lace it's a sky of. *That* is fundamental to the language.

However, you seem to be saying that {la tsani} and {la tsani be zo'e} or {l=
a tsani be da} are all people that share the exact same name. And this is w=
here I disagree.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Given my e=
arlier remarks, I think my position has to be that {la .tsani.} has as much=
 to do with the sky as "Smith" has to do with a forge, always allowing that=
 a particular user may want to insist on more (as in the {la cribe} case of=
ten cited).&nbsp; That is, {la .selpa'i.} is purely denotative and whatever=
 semantics (or grammar, for that matter) {selpa'i} may have are simply not =
relevant.&nbsp; Note, this does not make {selpa'i} a name when it stands al=
one, only when it is properly marked off, so as to be clearly distinct from=
 the predicate {selpa'i}.&nbsp; <br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div styl=
e=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;=
"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font=
-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2">
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> selpa'i &lt;seladwa@=
gmx.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@=
googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b=
> Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:06 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=
Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </=
div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt; selpa'i wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; la .lojbab. cu=
 cusku di'e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; What semantic distinctions arise from identifyi=
ng<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; something as a name as opposed to a normal description, =
I am not sure<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; (but it would surely encompass the relevant p=
lace structures).<br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; But {la} doesn't describe. It na=
mes. I don't describe Jacob Errington as<br>&gt;&gt; a sky when I call him =
by la tsani, and neither does he describe himself<br>&gt;&gt; as a sky by g=
iving himself that name. It's merely a label used to refer<br>&gt;&gt; to t=
his individual, nothing more.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; But "tsani" itself is gramma=
tically a brivla, and implicit<br>&gt; (grammatically) in "la tsani" is "la=
 tsani be ...".&nbsp; The places are<br>&gt; inseparable from the brivla.&n=
bsp; That is fundamental to the language.<br><br>I agree that places are in=
seperable from a brivla in that the places are what the brivla
 means. All the places together determine the meaning, and usually, if one =
or more places aren't present, the meaning of the brivla is different. When=
 I use {tsani}, I must be aware that it relates a sky to the place it's a s=
ky of. *That* is fundamental to the language.<br><br>However, you seem to b=
e saying that {la tsani} and {la tsani be zo'e} or {la tsani be da} are all=
 people that share the exact same name. And this is where I disagree.<br><b=
r>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i<br><br>-- You received this message because you are =
subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this=
 group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailt=
o=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@google=
groups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, sen=
d email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:loj=
ban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, visit =
<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> =
</div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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