Received: from mail-vc0-f191.google.com ([209.85.220.191]:41239) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UkaHw-0004qX-PT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 06:31:54 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f191.google.com with SMTP id id13sf787825vcb.18 for ; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=l71je0XL6EytwopWtnOkZ0xGPUyB5JiPu7j6UJDbw2M=; b=w/Fnc3kKLbPjQQN8k0hDTd7adIsJA/il6oYp/PbBl2d18r5nipEYvmeyTiiqr7HamZ Zklcw4/62jnQ83poSfXeca3gLJpyCseHad9CAS3Gm2k0VErjfDp5TnfbWENzsClszQI6 fgG9hAXpmLxaCfYMjMuYNB6Wb20/tXQfRGyJno1Qfc2j9XWMlLsf6cCNE2UCXB7m2O8u KcYNLPORxEzv9zay9olBK/gnOMDVUah5C5LBjFoOml1tRaZFrEHIHut91fxNVh+7Qzwh ag4ctp8n9JDLAmvHgIvnQs4Dhe4XSSsDsBb2RB9j6DDKkrf2Sqpmr4d75fG+O0hE/vrs LnbA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=l71je0XL6EytwopWtnOkZ0xGPUyB5JiPu7j6UJDbw2M=; b=ldI6KOkFppYprKgQSDu6QWjJBjKEj1fNFj4XTNFhhj9QCelh4GLRh65GopFLc+S1sR XKxcRPmr45yv/58hT7LGXv/5hBSO23ujW04BFQIfSHPxdwfQzgoTU7W+eSoIXhngKB8k k+ueclgOOF5FiXEuLHMuOL3Ytq183m2ea+DkVPuGb2TvGND8T2Ttq0nzUN+SKikqssxu kJtwC/F2G/il/Z734HoyzPH2BYHR+uGWBlXuE1ph3OCW9j+MhWyxXfr07XveRHpabuko lnO9E9mAb+5tsQuJlwbls7HAkU9y3lKSO7HNQDJmH2n5/+V4MFdgCUvwsr89Bs5Lo15X 07XA== X-Received: by 10.49.104.50 with SMTP id gb18mr2211232qeb.26.1370525489792; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.82.226 with SMTP id l2ls1266340qey.6.gmail; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.82.16 with SMTP id e16mr225235qey.13.1370525488393; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: John E Clifford Message-Id: <0261c48e-0801-4fe1-b4fa-998c78662596@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <1370523739.81533.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <51A379EF.3020803@gmx.de> <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <51A8680E.7040103@lojban.org> <51A8F326.2020901@lojban.org> <51A8F89D.2040408@gmx.de> <51B00097.8080004@lojban.org> <51B06D24.6020102@gmx.de> <1370523739.81533.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_113_4529282.1370525488009" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_113_4529282.1370525488009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, June 6, 2013 5:02:19 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > Given my earlier remarks, I think my position has to be that {la .tsani.} > has as much to do with the sky as "Smith" has to do with a forge, always > allowing that a particular user may want to insist on more (as in the {la > cribe} case often cited). That is, {la .selpa'i.} is purely denotative and > whatever semantics (or grammar, for that matter) {selpa'i} may have are > simply not relevant. Note, this does not make {selpa'i} a name when it > stands alone, only when it is properly marked off, so as to be clearly > distinct from the predicate {selpa'i}. > This is my position too. .ui > > ------------------------------ > *From:* selpa'i > > *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:06 AM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla > > la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e > > selpa'i wrote: > >> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e > >>> What semantic distinctions arise from identifying > >>> something as a name as opposed to a normal description, I am not sure > >>> (but it would surely encompass the relevant place structures). > >> > >> But {la} doesn't describe. It names. I don't describe Jacob Errington as > >> a sky when I call him by la tsani, and neither does he describe himself > >> as a sky by giving himself that name. It's merely a label used to refer > >> to this individual, nothing more. > > > > But "tsani" itself is grammatically a brivla, and implicit > > (grammatically) in "la tsani" is "la tsani be ...". The places are > > inseparable from the brivla. That is fundamental to the language. > > I agree that places are inseperable from a brivla in that the places are > what the brivla means. All the places together determine the meaning, and > usually, if one or more places aren't present, the meaning of the brivla is > different. When I use {tsani}, I must be aware that it relates a sky to the > place it's a sky of. *That* is fundamental to the language. > > However, you seem to be saying that {la tsani} and {la tsani be zo'e} or > {la tsani be da} are all people that share the exact same name. And this is > where I disagree. > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_113_4529282.1370525488009 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 5:02:19 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Given my earlier remarks, I think my position has to be that= {la .tsani.} has as much to do with the sky as "Smith" has to do with a fo= rge, always allowing that a particular user may want to insist on more (as = in the {la cribe} case often cited).  That is, {la .selpa'i.} is purel= y denotative and whatever semantics (or grammar, for that matter) {selpa'i}= may have are simply not relevant.  Note, this does not make {selpa'i}= a name when it stands alone, only when it is properly marked off, so as to= be clearly distinct from the predicate {selpa'i}. 
<= /div>


This is my posit= ion too. .ui

 

From: selpa'i <s= el...@gmx.de>
To:= loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<= br>

la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
> selpa'i wrote:
>> la .lojbab. cu= cusku di'e
>>> What semantic distinctions arise from identifyi= ng
>>> something as a name as opposed to a normal description, = I am not sure
>>> (but it would surely encompass the relevant p= lace structures).
>>
>> But {la} doesn't describe. It na= mes. I don't describe Jacob Errington as
>> a sky when I call him = by la tsani, and neither does he describe himself
>> as a sky by g= iving himself that name. It's merely a label used to refer
>> to t= his individual, nothing more.
>
> But "tsani" itself is gramma= tically a brivla, and implicit
> (grammatically) in "la tsani" is "la= tsani be ...".  The places are
> inseparable from the brivla.&n= bsp; That is fundamental to the language.

I agree that places are in= seperable from a brivla in that the places are what the brivla means. All the places together determine the meaning, and usually, if one = or more places aren't present, the meaning of the brivla is different. When= I use {tsani}, I must be aware that it relates a sky to the place it's a s= ky of. *That* is fundamental to the language.

However, you seem to b= e saying that {la tsani} and {la tsani be zo'e} or {la tsani be da} are all= people that share the exact same name. And this is where I disagree.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- You received this message because you are = subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this= group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+u= nsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to = loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more optio= ns, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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