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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 05:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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 Content preview:  From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org>
    To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 6:30 AM Subject: Re:
    [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla [...] 
 
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________________________________
 From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

selpa'i wrote:
> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
>> selpa'i wrote:
>>> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
>>>> What semantic distinctions arise from identifying
>>>> something as a name as opposed to a normal description, I am not sure
>>>> (but it would surely encompass the relevant place structures).
>>>=20
>>> But {la} doesn't describe. It names. I don't describe Jacob Errington a=
s
>>> a sky when I call him by la tsani, and neither does he describe himself
>>> as a sky by giving himself that name. It's merely a label used to refer
>>> to this individual, nothing more.
>>=20
>> But "tsani" itself is grammatically a brivla, and implicit
>> (grammatically) in "la tsani" is "la tsani be ...".=A0 The places are
>> inseparable from the brivla.=A0 That is fundamental to the language.
>=20
> I agree that places are inseperable from a brivla in that the places are
> what the brivla means.

I wasn't talking about meaning, actually.=A0 I was talking about grammar.=
=A0 A brivla automatically invokes grammatically the attachment of places (=
except when quoted with zo, or used as a delimiter in a zoi quote).

And, of course, what the current logic suggests is that {la} works like {zo=
} to convert a word into a name, not of the word itself but of something el=
se, not naturally, but by convention.=A0 That is, in {la tsani}, {tsani} is=
 not a brivla but just a string of letters/sounds which, the {la} says, are=
 being used as a name for someone/thing.=A0 {la tsani be zo'e} marks {tsani=
 be zo'e} as a longer string of the same purpose, quite unrelated to the pr=
evious, except for starting out the same way; but certainly not necessarily=
 referring to the same thing.

Those exceptions are in fact significant - they are examples of the brivla =
(or whatever word) being taken as a string of symbols/sounds that exists on=
 it own regardless of which word or kind of word that it is. It would seem =
that you want names to be another example of a string of symbols taken as s=
uch a standalone language unit.

But that isn't the case for Lojban.

How not?=A0 cmevla certainly do that.=A0 Or is your point that they are not=
 taken as a string of symbols, but rather as a *word*.=A0 But, on the other=
 hand, the {tsani} in {zo tsani} is taken as a word as well (it has to be p=
roper Lojban, after all) and as a name for itself.=A0 So, I don't see the d=
istinction as applying here.

All the places together determine the meaning,
> and usually, if one or more places aren't present, the meaning of the
> brivla is different. When I use {tsani}, I must be aware that it relates
> a sky to the place it's a sky of. *That* is fundamental to the language.
>=20
> However, you seem to be saying that {la tsani} and {la tsani be zo'e} or
> {la tsani be da} are all people that share the exact same name.

I am not saying anything of the sort.=A0 It might or might not be true, jus=
t as names might refer to the same person while having nothing to do with e=
ach other ("Robert LeChevalier", "lojbab", "Papa", "asshole" are all names =
that have been used to refer to the same person).=A0 But there also might b=
e multiple referents for the name "la tsani" as well, just as there are mul=
tiple persons named "Robert LeChevalier" in the world (not many, but they e=
xist).

I am saying that as far as Lojban is concerned "{la tsani} and {la tsani be=
 zo'e}" are linguistically equivalent, and there is no way to say "la tsani=
" such that it DOESN'T include a possible value in the unspecified places; =
they are there and they are "zo'e", if nothing else.

> And this is where I disagree.

Second!=A0 {la} deracinates {tsani}, so that it has historic, but not lingu=
istic, connections with its brivla existence.=A0=20

If I decided to call you "George" you would still be the same person. Likew=
ise if I were to call you "la tsani be zo'e".=A0 Furthermore, your preferen=
ce has little to do with it.=A0 It was defined to be POLITE to privilege th=
e name preferred by the one being named (or by the culture/language of whic=
h the named is most closely associated).=A0 But that isn't part if the lang=
uage definition, but rather a cultural convention.

And dotside or no dotside, I will never accept someone's choice of name to =
be "la" %^)

That seems a bit narrow of you, though I think that it would be an unwise n=
ame choice.=A0 Once we get away from cmevla=A0 proper (where {la} is not te=
chnically necessary), just what can count as a name is not very clear.=A0 S=
o far we have, I think, limited to brivla and possibly bridi tails of vario=
us sorts and certainly have talked about full bridi ("His enemies fear even=
 his horses", the sentence behind the abbreviated "Afraid-of-horses").=A0 S=
o farm cmavo and miscellaneous strings that are of no part of speech have b=
een avoided (or at least frowned upon).=A0 The new understanding of {la} wo=
uld technically open the path to all that, but custom is sure to intervene =
and prevent the worst of it, I hope.

-- Bob LeChevalier=A0 =A0 lojbab@lojban.org=A0 =A0 www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
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--=20
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---420974808-1363318776-1370781558=:18791
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span><br></span=
></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new yor=
k, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new ro=
man, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=
=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bol=
d;">From:</span></b> "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" &lt;loj=
bab@lojban.org&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>=
 lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</=
span></b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 6:30 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: b=
old;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </fo=
nt> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
selpa'i wrote:<br>&gt; la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt;&gt; selpa'i wrote:=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What semanti=
c distinctions arise from identifying<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; something as a na=
me as opposed to a normal description, I am not sure<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (b=
ut it would surely encompass the relevant place structures).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
; <br>&gt;&gt;&gt; But {la} doesn't describe. It names. I don't describe Ja=
cob Errington as<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; a sky when I call him by la tsani, and nei=
ther does he describe himself<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; as a sky by giving himself th=
at name. It's merely a label used to refer<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; to this individu=
al, nothing more.<br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; But "tsani" itself is grammatica=
lly a brivla, and implicit<br>&gt;&gt; (grammatically) in "la tsani" is "la=
 tsani be ...".&nbsp; The places are<br>&gt;&gt; inseparable from the brivl=
a.&nbsp; That is fundamental to the language.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I
 agree that places are inseperable from a brivla in that the places are<br>=
&gt; what the brivla means.<br><br>I wasn't talking about meaning, actually=
.&nbsp; I was talking about grammar.&nbsp; A brivla automatically invokes g=
rammatically the attachment of places (except when quoted with zo, or used =
as a delimiter in a zoi quote).<br><br>And, of course, what the current log=
ic suggests is that {la} works like {zo} to convert a word into a name, not=
 of the word itself but of something else, not naturally, but by convention=
.&nbsp; That is, in {la tsani}, {tsani} is not a brivla but just a string o=
f letters/sounds which, the {la} says, are being used as a name for someone=
/thing.&nbsp; {la tsani be zo'e} marks {tsani be zo'e} as a longer string o=
f the same purpose, quite unrelated to the previous, except for starting ou=
t the same way; but certainly not necessarily referring to the same thing.<=
br><br>Those exceptions are in fact significant - they are examples
 of the brivla (or whatever word) being taken as a string of symbols/sounds=
 that exists on it own regardless of which word or kind of word that it is.=
 It would seem that you want names to be another example of a string of sym=
bols taken as such a standalone language unit.<br><br>But that isn't the ca=
se for Lojban.<br><br>How not?&nbsp; cmevla certainly do that.&nbsp; Or is =
your point that they are not taken as a string of symbols, but rather as a =
*word*.&nbsp; But, on the other hand, the {tsani} in {zo tsani} is taken as=
 a word as well (it has to be proper Lojban, after all) and as a name for i=
tself.&nbsp; So, I don't see the distinction as applying here.<br><br> All =
the places together determine the meaning,<br>&gt; and usually, if one or m=
ore places aren't present, the meaning of the<br>&gt; brivla is different. =
When I use {tsani}, I must be aware that it relates<br>&gt; a sky to the pl=
ace it's a sky of. *That* is fundamental to the language.<br>&gt;
 <br>&gt; However, you seem to be saying that {la tsani} and {la tsani be z=
o'e} or<br>&gt; {la tsani be da} are all people that share the exact same n=
ame.<br><br>I am not saying anything of the sort.&nbsp; It might or might n=
ot be true, just as names might refer to the same person while having nothi=
ng to do with each other ("Robert LeChevalier", "lojbab", "Papa", "asshole"=
 are all names that have been used to refer to the same person).&nbsp; But =
there also might be multiple referents for the name "la tsani" as well, jus=
t as there are multiple persons named "Robert LeChevalier" in the world (no=
t many, but they exist).<br><br>I am saying that as far as Lojban is concer=
ned "{la tsani} and {la tsani be zo'e}" are linguistically equivalent, and =
there is no way to say "la tsani" such that it DOESN'T include a possible v=
alue in the unspecified places; they are there and they are "zo'e", if noth=
ing else.<br><br>&gt; And this is where I
 disagree.<br><br>Second!&nbsp; {la} deracinates {tsani}, so that it has hi=
storic, but not linguistic, connections with its brivla existence.&nbsp; <b=
r><br>If I decided to call you "George" you would still be the same person.=
 Likewise if I were to call you "la tsani be zo'e".&nbsp; Furthermore, your=
 preference has little to do with it.&nbsp; It was defined to be POLITE to =
privilege the name preferred by the one being named (or by the culture/lang=
uage of which the named is most closely associated).&nbsp; But that isn't p=
art if the language definition, but rather a cultural convention.<br><br>An=
d dotside or no dotside, I will never accept someone's choice of name to be=
 "la" %^)<br><br>That seems a bit narrow of you, though I think that it wou=
ld be an unwise name choice.&nbsp; Once we get away from cmevla&nbsp; prope=
r (where {la} is not technically necessary), just what can count as a name =
is not very clear.&nbsp; So far we have, I think, limited to brivla
 and possibly bridi tails of various sorts and certainly have talked about =
full bridi ("His enemies fear even his horses", the sentence behind the abb=
reviated "Afraid-of-horses").&nbsp; So farm cmavo and miscellaneous strings=
 that are of no part of speech have been avoided (or at least frowned upon)=
.&nbsp; The new understanding of {la} would technically open the path to al=
l that, but custom is sure to intervene and prevent the worst of it, I hope=
.<br><br>-- Bob LeChevalier&nbsp; &nbsp; <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban=
.org" href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/">www.lojban.org</a><br>=
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.<br><br>-- You recei=
ved this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" g=
roup.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, =
send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com"
 href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<=
/a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@go=
oglegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups=
.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=
=3Den.<br>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/grou=
ps/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.=
<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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