Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22b;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <72beb106-d507-4f58-a1c7-b5bfed4b7c8b@googlegroups.com>
References: <C87E7070-9168-4F82-9546-D08CEF7A114B@aol.com> <0e57de50-a0ed-4764-89ac-951fdc829b45@googlegroups.com>
 <CAHiXx=OxE_bdyLdxxxznrT6zajUEc-jou1Ta7=J+VpDYTm634w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e6f543e-19f5-4c52-9480-d5cf89764725@googlegroups.com> <20130609103610.GC24964@samsa.fritz.box>
 <72beb106-d507-4f58-a1c7-b5bfed4b7c8b@googlegroups.com>
From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 09:30:54 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOQ8VDVD+X7HeA5cTt7pY8taoOfHyn_V8kbRpaHt=MJpNR-c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Number of unique symbols needed to write lojban
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0118278e9dc40004deb8addc
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--089e0118278e9dc40004deb8addc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 9 June 2013 06:56, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:36:10 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:
>>
>> coi
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 08, 2013 at 08:27:42PM -0700, la arxokuna wrote:
>> > Oh, i was inprecise a bit.
>> > 1. dot and apostrophe are letters in lojban so we have 25 lowercase
>> letters.
>> > 2. There is a new trend to use capital letters instead of names of
>> letters
>> > (A,B instead of .abu, by.). So we have 23 capital letters.
>>
>> There is such a trend? Well, at least now there is...
>> Still capitals have to be included anyway.
>>
>> > 3. space
>>
>> What do you need the space for?
>>
>
> ????
>
> To input normal text in lojban of course. It's standard lojban. And space
> is a symbol.
>
>
>
If stress is always indicated, be it by accented characters or capital
letters, then the space character is unnecessary, but aids in readability.
The comma is the same: if one understands Lojban morphology, then the comma
is unnecessary, as it does not alter the pronunciation of a word, and two
words differing only in a comma are the same word.

That being said, the absolute minimal set of characters needed to write
Lojban using the Latin alphabet are the lowercase letters a to z, minus h,
q, and w. The apostrophe and the dot are also needed. In case of atypical
stress patterns (which only occur in cmevla) five accented characters are
also needed (perhaps six, as I can't recall if one is allowed to stress ybu
in cmevla). However, I would not consider each individual accented
character to be a separate character, as the sound is the same modulo the
stress difference.

Unless we always indicate stress, the space is needed.

That's 25 letters + one symbol if we choose to not always indicate the
stress, not counting the accented vowels as characters in their own right
(which, IMO, they are not.)

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--089e0118278e9dc40004deb8addc
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On 9 June 2013 06:56, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.n=
ame@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br><br>On Sunday, June 9,=
 2013 2:36:10 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>

coi
<br>
<br>On Sat, Jun 08, 2013 at 08:27:42PM -0700, la arxokuna wrote:
<br>&gt; Oh, i was inprecise a bit.
<br>&gt; 1. dot and apostrophe are letters in lojban so we have 25 lowercas=
e letters.
<br>&gt; 2. There is a new trend to use capital letters instead of names of=
 letters=20
<br>&gt; (A,B instead of .abu, by.). So we have 23 capital letters.
<br>
<br>There is such a trend? Well, at least now there is...
<br>Still capitals have to be included anyway.
<br>
<br>&gt; 3. space
<br>
<br>What do you need the space for?
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>????</div><div><br></div><div>To=
 input normal text in lojban of course. It&#39;s standard lojban. And space=
 is a symbol.</div><div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><div><br></div><div><br></div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>If stress is always indicated,=
 be it by accented characters or capital letters, then the space character =
is unnecessary, but aids in readability. The comma is the same: if one unde=
rstands Lojban morphology, then the comma is unnecessary, as it does not al=
ter the pronunciation of a word, and two words differing only in a comma ar=
e the same word.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>That being said, the absolute minimal set o=
f characters needed to write Lojban using the Latin alphabet are the lowerc=
ase letters a to z, minus h, q, and w. The apostrophe and the dot are also =
needed. In case of atypical stress patterns (which only occur in cmevla) fi=
ve accented characters are also needed (perhaps six, as I can&#39;t recall =
if one is allowed to stress ybu in cmevla). However, I would not consider e=
ach individual accented character to be a separate character, as the sound =
is the same modulo the stress difference.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Unless we always indicate stress, the space=
 is needed.</div><div style><br></div><div style>That&#39;s 25 letters + on=
e symbol if we choose to not always indicate the stress, not counting the a=
ccented vowels as characters in their own right (which, IMO, they are not.)=
</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div></div></=
div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--089e0118278e9dc40004deb8addc--