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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 07:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Number of unique symbols needed to write lojban
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Need spasce -- or something -- to indicate the beginning of cmevla (and the=
 end?).


________________________________
 From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Number of unique symbols needed to write lojban
=20


On 9 June 2013 06:56, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


>
>On Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:36:10 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:
>coi=20
>>
>>On Sat, Jun 08, 2013 at 08:27:42PM -0700, la arxokuna wrote:=20
>>> Oh, i was inprecise a bit.=20
>>> 1. dot and apostrophe are letters in lojban so we have 25 lowercase let=
ters.=20
>>> 2. There is a new trend to use capital letters instead of names of lett=
ers=20
>>> (A,B instead of .abu, by.). So we have 23 capital letters.=20
>>
>>There is such a trend? Well, at least now there is...=20
>>Still capitals have to be included anyway.=20
>>
>>> 3. space=20
>>
>>What do you need the space for?=20
>>
>
>
>????
>
>
>To input normal text in lojban of course. It's standard lojban. And space =
is a symbol.
>
>
>
>

If stress is always indicated, be it by accented characters or capital lett=
ers, then the space character is unnecessary, but aids in readability. The =
comma is the same: if one understands Lojban morphology, then the comma is =
unnecessary, as it does not alter the pronunciation of a word, and two word=
s differing only in a comma are the same word.

That being said, the absolute minimal set of characters needed to write Loj=
ban using the Latin alphabet are the lowercase letters a to z, minus h, q, =
and w. The apostrophe and the dot are also needed. In case of atypical stre=
ss patterns (which only occur in cmevla) five accented characters are also =
needed (perhaps six, as I can't recall if one is allowed to stress ybu in c=
mevla). However, I would not consider each individual accented character to=
 be a separate character, as the sound is the same modulo the stress differ=
ence.

Unless we always indicate stress, the space is needed.

That's 25 letters + one symbol if we choose to not always indicate the stre=
ss, not counting the accented vowels as characters in their own right (whic=
h, IMO, they are not.)

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Need spasce -- or som=
ething -- to indicate the beginning of cmevla (and the end?).<br><div><span=
></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, =
new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times=
 new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <h=
r size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht:bold;">From:</span></b> Jacob Errington &lt;nictytan@gmail.com&gt;<br> <=
b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "lojban@googlegroups.co=
m" &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=
;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 8:30 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font=
-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Re: Number of unique symbo=
ls needed to write lojban<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"=
><br>
<div id=3D"yiv928349240"><div dir=3D"ltr">On 9 June 2013 06:56, la arxokuna=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.na=
me@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">=
gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"yiv928349=
240gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv928349240gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"yiv928349240gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"yiv928349240im"><=
br><br>On Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:36:10 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:<blockquote cla=
ss=3D"yiv928349240gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

coi
<br>
<br>On Sat, Jun 08, 2013 at 08:27:42PM -0700, la arxokuna wrote:
<br>&gt; Oh, i was inprecise a bit.
<br>&gt; 1. dot and apostrophe are letters in lojban so we have 25 lowercas=
e letters.
<br>&gt; 2. There is a new trend to use capital letters instead of names of=
 letters=20
<br>&gt; (A,B instead of .abu, by.). So we have 23 capital letters.
<br>
<br>There is such a trend? Well, at least now there is...
<br>Still capitals have to be included anyway.
<br>
<br>&gt; 3. space
<br>
<br>What do you need the space for?
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>????</div><div><br></div><div>To=
 input normal text in lojban of course. It's standard lojban. And space is =
a symbol.</div><div class=3D"yiv928349240im yiv928349240HOEnZb"><div><br></=
div><div><br></div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">If stress is always indic=
ated, be it by accented characters or capital letters, then the space chara=
cter is unnecessary, but aids in readability. The comma is the same: if one=
 understands Lojban morphology, then the comma is unnecessary, as it does n=
ot alter the pronunciation of a word, and two words differing only in a com=
ma are the same word.</div>

<div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">That being said, the absolute min=
imal set of characters needed to write Lojban using the Latin alphabet are =
the lowercase letters a to z, minus h, q, and w. The apostrophe and the dot=
 are also needed. In case of atypical stress patterns (which only occur in =
cmevla) five accented characters are also needed (perhaps six, as I can't r=
ecall if one is allowed to stress ybu in cmevla). However, I would not cons=
ider each individual accented character to be a separate character, as the =
sound is the same modulo the stress difference.</div>

<div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">Unless we always indicate stress,=
 the space is needed.</div><div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">That's=
 25 letters + one symbol if we choose to not always indicate the stress, no=
t counting the accented vowels as characters in their own right (which, IMO=
, they are not.)</div>

<div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">.i mi'e la tsani mu'o</div></div>=
</div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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