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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 07:13:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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Optimistic?=A0 Well, maybe, but I don't expect it to catch on after the fir=
st person refers to the comic as {la ui}


________________________________
 From: v4hn <me@v4hn.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

coi rodo

On Sun, Jun 09, 2013 at 02:20:21PM +0200, selpa'i wrote:
> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
> >Those exceptions are in fact significant - they are examples of the
> >brivla (or whatever word) being taken as a string of symbols/sounds that
> >exists on it own regardless of which word or kind of word that it is. It
> >would seem that you want names to be another example of a string of
> >symbols taken as such a standalone language unit.
>=20
> Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying they are. I thought I had made
> that clear. A name is a word (or multiple words) used to refer to
> some entity, irrespective of what that word might mean.

Fine, finally you guys managed to formulate ba'e how your opinions differ.

> >But that isn't the case for Lojban.
>=20
> You seem to be alone in thinking that (see other people's responses).

Hold it right there. He's definitely not. It's just that some people
who produce most noise - not judging whether this is good or bad - on this =
list
oppose it. That doesn't mean nobody else has the same opinion.
I also assume most people don't care at all wondering why there's so much f=
uss
over this.

> But the accepted definition of {la} is:
>
> la broda =3D=3D lo selcme be zo broda

No, it is not. The last "accepted" "definition" of {la} is in xorlo which s=
tates

la [PA] broda - zo'e noi lu [PA] broda li'u cmene ke'a mi

I'm not sure that is the same thing. At least the full structure of the sub=
sentence
includes {zo'e}s, so you can't get around them at all levels.

Another rather simple observation: Whether or not {la selpa'i}
is decided to have some semantic connection to {prami}, you're not able to =
make
people ignore connotations of the word you're uttering.
Psychological fact (if such things even exist).
Therefore, if I read {la tsani}, I will think of the person AND I will thin=
k
of sky. Same for {selpa'i}. So if you don't want me to think of "beloved"
when I read about you, pick a different name.

John E Clifford wrote:
> The new understanding of {la} would technically open the
> path to all that, but custom is sure to intervene and prevent the worst o=
f it,
> I hope.

sei palci cmila do ba'e krici xu

You're optimistic. If it's allowed and even pointed out, people will do it.
Especially in an online community were morals barely exist in the first pla=
ce.


v4hn

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Optimistic?&nbsp; Wel=
l, maybe, but I don't expect it to catch on after the first person refers t=
o the comic as {la ui}<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div=
 style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: =
12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
 font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial"=
 size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> v4hn &lt=
;me@v4hn.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lo=
jban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</spa=
n></b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 8:35 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=
;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font>=
 </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
coi rodo<br><br>On Sun, Jun 09, 2013 at 02:20:21PM +0200, selpa'i wrote:<br=
>&gt; la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt; &gt;Those exceptions are in fact si=
gnificant - they are examples of the<br>&gt; &gt;brivla (or whatever word) =
being taken as a string of symbols/sounds that<br>&gt; &gt;exists on it own=
 regardless of which word or kind of word that it is. It<br>&gt; &gt;would =
seem that you want names to be another example of a string of<br>&gt; &gt;s=
ymbols taken as such a standalone language unit.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Yes, that=
's exactly what I'm saying they are. I thought I had made<br>&gt; that clea=
r. A name is a word (or multiple words) used to refer to<br>&gt; some entit=
y, irrespective of what that word might mean.<br><br>Fine, finally you guys=
 managed to formulate ba'e how your opinions differ.<br><br>&gt; &gt;But th=
at isn't the case for Lojban.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; You seem to be alone in thin=
king that (see other people's responses).<br><br>Hold it right
 there. He's definitely not. It's just that some people<br>who produce most=
 noise - not judging whether this is good or bad - on this list<br>oppose i=
t. That doesn't mean nobody else has the same opinion.<br>I also assume mos=
t people don't care at all wondering why there's so much fuss<br>over this.=
<br><br>&gt; But the accepted definition of {la} is:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; la bro=
da =3D=3D lo selcme be zo broda<br><br>No, it is not. The last "accepted" "=
definition" of {la} is in xorlo which states<br><br>la [PA] broda - zo'e no=
i lu [PA] broda li'u cmene ke'a mi<br><br>I'm not sure that is the same thi=
ng. At least the full structure of the subsentence<br>includes {zo'e}s, so =
you can't get around them at all levels.<br><br>Another rather simple obser=
vation: Whether or not {la selpa'i}<br>is decided to have some semantic con=
nection to {prami}, you're not able to make<br>people ignore connotations o=
f the word you're uttering.<br>Psychological fact (if such things even
 exist).<br>Therefore, if I read {la tsani}, I will think of the person AND=
 I will think<br>of sky. Same for {selpa'i}. So if you don't want me to thi=
nk of "beloved"<br>when I read about you, pick a different name.<br><br>Joh=
n E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; The new understanding of {la} would technically=
 open the<br>&gt; path to all that, but custom is sure to intervene and pre=
vent the worst of it,<br>&gt; I hope.<br><br>sei palci cmila do ba'e krici =
xu<br><br>You're optimistic. If it's allowed and even pointed out, people w=
ill do it.<br>Especially in an online community were morals barely exist in=
 the first place.<br><br><br>v4hn<br><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></=
body></html>

<p></p>

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