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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 07:31:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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 Content preview:  It s probably worth noting in these otherwise dubious expansions
    that the assigned name is deracinated, that is, it does NOT include, even
    implicitly, any {zo'e}s. {la broda be zo'e} is another name altogether, and
    no more related to the first than {la brode} is. [...] 
 
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It s probably worth noting in these otherwise dubious expansions that the a=
ssigned name is deracinated, that is, it does NOT include, even implicitly,=
 any {zo'e}s. {la broda be zo'e} is another name altogether, and no more re=
lated to the first than {la brode} is.=A0=20

There appear to be two choices.=A0 One is that {la} functions like {le} etc=
. making a special kind of description out of a brivla or bridi tail or wha=
t have you.=A0 In that case, cmevla are just an odd sort of brivla, requiri=
ng {la} to function as names and other wise serving as predicates meaning "=
x1 is named by this string": {mi pycyn} is well-formed and nothing special.=
=A0 On the other hand, {la} is special in that it=A0 turns a brivla into a =
soundstring and then uses that string as a name.=A0 In that case, cmevla ar=
e a separate category, since they name without the need for {la} (although =
the rules do require its use).=A0 {la}turns a brivla into a cmene.=A0 The e=
xpansions fairly clearly favor the second view, but are, of course, not str=
ictly official.


________________________________
 From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

la .van. cu cusku di'e
> On Sun, Jun 09, 2013 at 02:20:21PM +0200, selpa'i wrote:
>> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
>>> But that isn't the case for Lojban.
>>=20
>> You seem to be alone in thinking that (see other people's responses).
>=20
> Hold it right there. He's definitely not. It's just that some people
> who produce most noise - not judging whether this is good or bad - on thi=
s list
> oppose it. That doesn't mean nobody else has the same opinion.

Then they should speak up and add to the discussion. If, in discussion X, s=
omething gets decided, then person Y that never cared to participate in dis=
cussion X should not complain about the outcome. In other words, if you wan=
t your opinion to be heard, then let it be heard. Otherwise it can be asume=
d you don't have an opinion or don't have an interest in the outcome of the=
 discussion.

> I also assume most people don't care at all wondering why there's so much=
 fuss
> over this.
>=20
>> But the accepted definition of {la} is:
>>=20
>> la broda =3D=3D lo selcme be zo broda
>=20
> No, it is not. The last "accepted" "definition" of {la} is in xorlo which=
 states
>=20
> la [PA] broda - zo'e noi lu [PA] broda li'u cmene ke'a mi
>=20
> I'm not sure that is the same thing.

That's the same definition, just expanded.

lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda

la broda =3D lo selcme be zo broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a selcme zo broda

> At least the full structure of the subsentence
> includes {zo'e}s, so you can't get around them at all levels.

The {lo}-version also has {zo'e}:

lo selcme =3D lo selcme be zo'e bei zo'e

There is no difference.

> Another rather simple observation: Whether or not {la selpa'i}
> is decided to have some semantic connection to {prami}, you're not able t=
o make
> people ignore connotations of the word you're uttering.
> Psychological fact (if such things even exist).
> Therefore, if I read {la tsani}, I will think of the person AND I will th=
ink
> of sky. Same for {selpa'i}. So if you don't want me to think of "beloved"
> when I read about you, pick a different name.

Connotation is not outlawed, but {la} only denotes. I don't mind if you get=
 reminded of the brivla {selpa'i} when you see {la selpa'i}, but you should=
 mainly think of me or someone else that goes by that name. {la tsani} has =
nothing to do with skies, and if you cannot ignore the gismu meaning, then =
that's your problem of reading too much into names. I think of Jacob Erring=
ton, not of the sky, when I see {la tsani}.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i


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--=20
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">It s probably worth n=
oting in these otherwise dubious expansions that the assigned name is derac=
inated, that is, it does NOT include, even implicitly, any {zo'e}s. {la bro=
da be zo'e} is another name altogether, and no more related to the first th=
an {la brode} is.&nbsp; <br><br>There appear to be two choices.&nbsp; One i=
s that {la} functions like {le} etc. making a special kind of description o=
ut of a brivla or bridi tail or what have you.&nbsp; In that case, cmevla a=
re just an odd sort of brivla, requiring {la} to function as names and othe=
r wise serving as predicates meaning "x1 is named by this string": {mi pycy=
n} is well-formed and nothing special.&nbsp; On the other hand, {la} is spe=
cial in that it&nbsp; turns a brivla into a soundstring and then uses that =
string as a name.&nbsp; In that case, cmevla are a separate category,
 since they name without the need for {la} (although the rules do require i=
ts use).&nbsp; {la}turns a brivla into a cmene.&nbsp; The expansions fairly=
 clearly favor the second view, but are, of course, not strictly official.<=
br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: =
times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"f=
ont-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <di=
v dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> selpa'i &lt;seladwa@gmx.de&gt;<=
br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroup=
s.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, J=
une 9, 2013 9:02 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</spa=
n></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div> <div cla=
ss=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
la .van. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt; On Sun, Jun 09, 2013 at 02:20:21PM +0200, se=
lpa'i wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; But that=
 isn't the case for Lojban.<br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; You seem to be alone i=
n thinking that (see other people's responses).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hold it ri=
ght there. He's definitely not. It's just that some people<br>&gt; who prod=
uce most noise - not judging whether this is good or bad - on this list<br>=
&gt; oppose it. That doesn't mean nobody else has the same opinion.<br><br>=
Then they should speak up and add to the discussion. If, in discussion X, s=
omething gets decided, then person Y that never cared to participate in dis=
cussion X should not complain about the outcome. In other words, if you wan=
t your opinion to be heard, then let it be heard. Otherwise it can be asume=
d you don't have an opinion or don't have an interest in the outcome of the=
 discussion.<br><br>&gt; I also assume most people don't care at all
 wondering why there's so much fuss<br>&gt; over this.<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&gt;=
 But the accepted definition of {la} is:<br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; la broda =
=3D=3D lo selcme be zo broda<br>&gt; <br>&gt; No, it is not. The last "acce=
pted" "definition" of {la} is in xorlo which states<br>&gt; <br>&gt; la [PA=
] broda - zo'e noi lu [PA] broda li'u cmene ke'a mi<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I'm no=
t sure that is the same thing.<br><br>That's the same definition, just expa=
nded.<br><br>lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda<br><br>la broda =3D lo selcme be z=
o broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a selcme zo broda<br><br>&gt; At least the full str=
ucture of the subsentence<br>&gt; includes {zo'e}s, so you can't get around=
 them at all levels.<br><br>The {lo}-version also has {zo'e}:<br><br>lo sel=
cme =3D lo selcme be zo'e bei zo'e<br><br>There is no difference.<br><br>&g=
t; Another rather simple observation: Whether or not {la selpa'i}<br>&gt; i=
s decided to have some semantic connection to {prami}, you're not able to
 make<br>&gt; people ignore connotations of the word you're uttering.<br>&g=
t; Psychological fact (if such things even exist).<br>&gt; Therefore, if I =
read {la tsani}, I will think of the person AND I will think<br>&gt; of sky=
. Same for {selpa'i}. So if you don't want me to think of "beloved"<br>&gt;=
 when I read about you, pick a different name.<br><br>Connotation is not ou=
tlawed, but {la} only denotes. I don't mind if you get reminded of the briv=
la {selpa'i} when you see {la selpa'i}, but you should mainly think of me o=
r someone else that goes by that name. {la tsani} has nothing to do with sk=
ies, and if you cannot ignore the gismu meaning, then that's your problem o=
f reading too much into names. I think of Jacob Errington, not of the sky, =
when I see {la tsani}.<br><br>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i<br><br><br>-- You receiv=
ed this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" gr=
oup.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
 from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:=
lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@goo=
glegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo=
jban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o=
ut</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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