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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 12:06:10 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2fwBgQ7zdZcv6LmM3r_yXZcTKBT5dLfrdaL3vH4LaqR0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 11:31 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> There appear to be two choices.  One is that {la} functions like {le} etc.
> making a special kind of description out of a brivla or bridi tail or what
> have you.
>


It's called a sumti-tail, a brivla being the simplest case of sumti-tail.
"broda brode", "me ko'a", "nu broda", "broda be ko'e", "ci broda", "poi
broda ku'o brode", etc are all examples of sumti-tail, which can be names,
but they are not (single) brivla. OTOH "broda ko'a" is a bridi-tail and it
is not a possible name.

"la", just like any member of LE, turns a sumti-tail into a sumti. But
unlike members of LE, it can also turn chains of one or more cmevla into a
sumti.


> In that case, cmevla are just an odd sort of brivla, requiring {la} to
> function as names and other wise serving as predicates meaning "x1 is named
> by this string": {mi pycyn} is well-formed and nothing special.
>


They aren't with the current grammar, but the argument is that they should
be.


> On the other hand, {la} is special in that it  turns a brivla into a
> soundstring and then uses that string as a name.
>

That's what "la" does, except of course when all it does is take something
that is already nothing but a soundstring, in which case it doesn't need to
turn it into anything, just use it as a name.


> In that case, cmevla are a separate category, since they name without the
> need for {la}
>

Rather, they are already mere soundstrings. They need "la" (or "doi") in
order to name.


> (although the rules do require its use).  {la}turns a brivla into a cmene.
>

"la" turns either a sumti-tail (of which brivla are the most basic type) or
a chain of one or more consonant-ending soundstrings into a name,

The expansions fairly clearly favor the second view, but are, of course,
> not strictly official.
>

The expansion  "la broda -> zo'e noi lu broda li'u cmene ke'a" does not
particularly favor or oppose the merge of cmevla with brivla. All the merge
does is provide a rather obvious meaning to the otherwise meaningless
consonant-ending soundstrings, so that they too can be used as brivla, and
so that they don't require a special and more restricted syntax.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 11:31 AM, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">kali9putra@ya=
hoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;times n=
ew roman&#39;,&#39;new york&#39;,times,serif">
<br>There appear to be two choices.=A0 One is that {la} functions like {le}=
 etc. making a special kind of description out of a brivla or bridi tail or=
 what have you.=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv style>
It&#39;s called a sumti-tail, a brivla being the simplest case of sumti-tai=
l. &quot;broda brode&quot;, &quot;me ko&#39;a&quot;, &quot;nu broda&quot;, =
&quot;broda be ko&#39;e&quot;, &quot;ci broda&quot;, &quot;poi broda ku&#39=
;o brode&quot;, etc are all examples of sumti-tail, which can be names, but=
 they are not (single) brivla. OTOH &quot;broda ko&#39;a&quot; is a bridi-t=
ail and it is not a possible name.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>&quot;la&quot;, just like any member of LE,=
 turns a sumti-tail into a sumti. But unlike members of LE, it can also tur=
n chains of one or more cmevla into a sumti.</div><div><br></div><div>=A0</=
div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;times n=
ew roman&#39;,&#39;new york&#39;,times,serif">
 In that case, cmevla are just an odd sort of brivla, requiring {la} to fun=
ction as names and other wise serving as predicates meaning &quot;x1 is nam=
ed by this string&quot;: {mi pycyn} is well-formed and nothing special.=A0 =
</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div style>They aren&#39;t=
 with the current grammar, but the argument is that they should be.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;times new roman&#39;,=
9;new york&#39;,times,serif">On the other hand, {la} is special in that it=
=A0 turns a brivla into a soundstring and then uses that string as a name.=
=A0</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>That&#39;s what &quot;la&quot;=
 does, except of course when all it does is take something that is already =
nothing but a soundstring, in which case it doesn&#39;t need to turn it int=
o anything, just use it as a name.</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;times new roman&#39;,&#39;new york&#39;,times,serif">
 In that case, cmevla are a separate category,
 since they name without the need for {la} </div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div style>Rather, they are already mere soundstrings. They need &q=
uot;la&quot; (or &quot;doi&quot;) in order to name.=A0</div><div>=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;times n=
ew roman&#39;,&#39;new york&#39;,times,serif">
(although the rules do require its use).=A0 {la}turns a brivla into a cmene=
.=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>&quot;la&quot; turns=
 either a sumti-tail (of which brivla are the most basic type) or a chain o=
f one or more consonant-ending soundstrings into a name,</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;times new roman&#39;,&#39;new york&#39;,times,serif">
 The expansions fairly clearly favor the second view, but are, of course, n=
ot strictly official.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>The=
 expansion =A0&quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,san=
s-serif;font-size:13px">la broda -&gt; zo&#39;e noi lu broda li&#39;u cmene=
 ke&#39;a&quot;=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:aria=
l,sans-serif;font-size:13px">does not particularly favor or oppose the merg=
e of cmevla with brivla. All the merge does is provide a rather obvious mea=
ning to the otherwise meaningless consonant-ending soundstrings, so that th=
ey too can be used as brivla, and so that they don&#39;t require a special =
and more restricted syntax.</span></div>
<div style><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:13px"><br></span></div><div style><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80=
);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</sp=
an></div>
<div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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