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[66.94.236.27]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b5si801337igd.0.2013.06.09.10.07.01 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.27 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.27; Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2013 17:07:00 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.96] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2013 17:07:00 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1001.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2013 17:07:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 818038.88779.bm@omp1001.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 87826 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jun 2013 17:07:00 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: KA3_XsUVM1lhjEaKxH1exIrrqEC6eW_hfpbXwqAs6S5Ln0A xfWTQPkpk1i0aQjRO2WLKM2HX8JpFUpznX9FdlS.qZVVVpi62PnOYgHih39l uIIaODBu.jddW0VdNQfP9ydfN336_NyZ8uhaur840Cx1uCK.B.lSkaH2LHkv wjhPq.lB_0to2hdsmAuykfLORdevO.arYQ.VvpdzuTkPxQVznL47miSaco0D 72mZxKww_1OVRw44uqFQkPd07p71N1NXd3kbGB9.mX_inicQA5Oaw_cthxkY _c36nMBeu_6tWoGEToZ_reQO6se5oKXBtz1kYydhYlP84Kkb5HEne_LoXZEp Wgd6t689OSj3yP5H02fvMtg2vrE6AKTKCWDdhBTkrln9zxId_xqOExoXMA0m 4QtO4e3FRAnZ2lRgQuMT8WMz6r8fDuzw.gnGzWTMaqo0jWrEc6VcyP0z9p6E H2uoQKFbhqhhksb0OWeKbVYnFpcALod3aOYuv3u3LDaROkdHZxUV79Ggo7sX 3AysHetKLsb5jm6GAS5CS20372JvgwyLRg_OmHGAwTXM.Xba.qJJlFhlcCx5 zs7amHQTcc.QP9yRJNvQMo1K5211tyjMKvCp68SszZky5vway9ypVCdAoQb0 cXkFSxVV1bTv.LNFg8NX2.bsC7NlW4_aUqJe954jUspGL1QksbH4FACXN9Pf xwSXxMUQ.vo1Kx8ZloDGhzF2YTrI7BsMNsaP6iPVcs6xT72VKxzDWW68Src6 Ers2ZKUfovszSVQ-- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:07:00 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,cG90YXl0bywgcG90YWh0by7CoCBUaGlzIGlzIGJlY29taW5nIGEgZ2VudWluZSBwaGlsb3NvcGhpY2FsIGFyZ3VtZW50LCB3aGVyZSBhbGwgdGhlIGZhY3RzIChvciBtb3N0IG9mIHRoZW0pIGFyZSBhZ3JlZWQgYnV0IHdlIGdvIHJvdW5kIGFuZCByb3VuZCBhYm91dCB3b3Jkcy7CoCAKSW4gTG9naWMsIG5hbWVzIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgZGlzdGluY3QgZnJvbSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbnMsIHByZWRpY2F0ZXMsIHZhcmlhYmxlcywgY29ubmVjdGl2ZXMsIGFuZCBzbyBvbi4gRG9lcyB0aGlzIGNhcnJ5IG92ZXIgdG8gTG8BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.145.547 References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <51A8680E.7040103@lojban.org> <51A8F326.2020901@lojban.org> <51A8F89D.2040408@gmx.de> <51B00097.8080004@lojban.org> <51B06D24.6020102@gmx.de> <51B46762.8080509@lojban.org> <51B47305.4020704@gmx.de> <20130609133526.GD24964@samsa.fritz.box> <51B48B09.2080709@gmx.de> <1370788283.82111.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1370797620.87480.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.27 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-213967547-1370797620=:87480" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: potayto, potahto. This is becoming a genuine philosophical argument, where all the facts (or most of them) are agreed but we go round and round about words. In Logic, names need to be distinct from descriptions, predicates, variables, connectives, and so on. Does this carry over to Lojban? cmevla, which play a part in names, are structurally distinct from all other words in Lojban, so could, presumably, play the role of names. They currently play a part in no other Lojban constructions than names. To be used as names, cmevla must be preceded by {la}, etc., of LE, the class of descriptors, thus making them distinct from descriptions only by the particular descriptor used and the type of word following, i.e., a cmevla rather than a brivla (and ignoring what all comes after that -- and, for the moment, the fact that numerators may intervene). [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --1789658926-213967547-1370797620=:87480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable potayto, potahto.=A0 This is becoming a genuine philosophical argument, whe= re all the facts (or most of them) are agreed but we go round and round abo= ut words.=A0=20 In Logic, names need to be distinct from descriptions, predicates, variable= s, connectives, and so on. Does this carry over to Lojban? cmevla, which play a part in names, are structurally distinct from all othe= r words in Lojban, so could, presumably, play the role of names.=A0 They cu= rrently play a part in no other Lojban constructions than names.=A0=20 To be used as names, cmevla must be preceded by {la}, etc., of LE, the clas= s of descriptors, thus making them distinct from descriptions only by the p= articular descriptor used and the type of word following, i.e., a cmevla ra= ther than a brivla (and ignoring what all comes after that -- and, for the = moment, the fact that numerators may intervene).=A0=20 But {la}, etc., can also be used before anything that the rest of LE can be= used before and still produce a name.=A0 If this sumti-tail is treated the= same after {la} as after {le}, namely as having implicit place fillers in = the places not overtly filled, so that {la broda} is the same as {la broda = be zo'e}, say -- necessarily refers to the same thing in a given context, t= hen {la} is just another descriptor, of a rather peculiar sort, to be sure,= and cmevla are syntactically distinct only by not being allowed to play se= lbri, which seems pointless. On the other hand, if {la}+ a particular sumti-tail, is distinct from {la}+= another sumti-tail created by expanding the original in the usual way for = missing sumti, then {la} is not a descriptor, but rather a meta device for = turning any string of sounds into a name.=A0 But then the restriction to su= mti-tails seems pointless; why not {broda ko'a}(dot conventions in place of= course)? Why not a whole sentence rather than just a sumti-tail (I assume = a whole sentence can't be a degenerate case of a sumti-tail)?=A0 Why not {l= a la} and {la ui}?=A0 Since any string ending in a consonant can become a n= ame, why not any string at all?=A0=20 As one way out of this, note that some names do not require {la}: {mi}, {do= }, and a few more.=A0 They are distinguished out by enumeration.=A0 cmevla = are distinguished by structure.=A0 Maybe they should join the list of {la}-= less names.=A0 Then {la} snaps back to apply to sumti-tails only and, while= slightly odd, is a mere descriptor again, without all the resulting proble= ms of unwelcome {la} phrases. I think that covers the muck. ________________________________ From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla =20 On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 11:31 AM, John E Clifford wro= te: >There appear to be two choices.=A0 One is that {la} functions like {le} et= c. making a special kind of description out of a brivla or bridi tail or wh= at have you.=A0 It's called a sumti-tail, a brivla being the simplest case of sumti-tail. "= broda brode", "me ko'a", "nu broda", "broda be ko'e", "ci broda", "poi brod= a ku'o brode", etc are all examples of sumti-tail, which can be names, but = they are not (single) brivla. OTOH "broda ko'a" is a bridi-tail and it is n= ot a possible name. "la", just like any member of LE, turns a sumti-tail into a sumti. But unli= ke members of LE, it can also turn chains of one or more cmevla into a sumt= i. =A0 In that case, cmevla are just an odd sort of brivla, requiring {la} to func= tion as names and other wise serving as predicates meaning "x1 is named by = this string": {mi pycyn} is well-formed and nothing special.=A0=20 They aren't with the current grammar, but the argument is that they should = be. =A0 On the other hand, {la} is special in that it=A0 turns a brivla into a soun= dstring and then uses that string as a name.=A0 That's what "la" does, except of course when all it does is take something = that is already nothing but a soundstring, in which case it doesn't need to= turn it into anything, just use it as a name. =A0 In that case, cmevla are a separate category, since they name without the n= eed for {la}=20 Rather, they are already mere soundstrings. They need "la" (or "doi") in or= der to name.=A0 =A0 (although the rules do require its use).=A0 {la}turns a brivla into a cmene= .=A0 "la" turns either a sumti-tail (of which brivla are the most basic type) or= a chain of one or more consonant-ending soundstrings into a name, The expansions fairly clearly favor the second view, but are, of course, no= t strictly official. The expansion =A0"la broda -> zo'e noi lu broda li'u cmene ke'a"=A0does not= particularly favor or oppose the merge of cmevla with brivla. All the merg= e does is provide a rather obvious meaning to the otherwise meaningless con= sonant-ending soundstrings, so that they too can be used as brivla, and so = that they don't require a special and more restricted syntax. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --1789658926-213967547-1370797620=:87480 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
potayto, potahto.&nbs= p; This is becoming a genuine philosophical argument, where all the facts (= or most of them) are agreed but we go round and round about words.  In Logic, names need to be distinct from descriptions, predicates, variab= les, connectives, and so on. Does this carry over to Lojban?
cmevla, whi= ch play a part in names, are structurally distinct from all other words in = Lojban, so could, presumably, play the role of names.  They currently = play a part in no other Lojban constructions than names. 
To be us= ed as names, cmevla must be preceded by {la}, etc., of LE, the class of des= criptors, thus making them distinct from descriptions only by the particula= r descriptor used and the type of word following, i.e., a cmevla rather tha= n a brivla (and ignoring what all comes after that -- and, for the moment, the fact that numerators may intervene). 
But = {la}, etc., can also be used before anything that the rest of LE can be use= d before and still produce a name.  If this sumti-tail is treated the = same after {la} as after {le}, namely as having implicit place fillers in t= he places not overtly filled, so that {la broda} is the same as {la broda b= e zo'e}, say -- necessarily refers to the same thing in a given context, th= en {la} is just another descriptor, of a rather peculiar sort, to be sure, = and cmevla are syntactically distinct only by not being allowed to play sel= bri, which seems pointless.
On the other hand, if {l= a}+ a particular sumti-tail, is distinct from {la}+ another sumti-tail crea= ted by expanding the original in the usual way for missing sumti, then {la} is not a descriptor, but rather a meta device for turning any string = of sounds into a name.  But then the restriction to sumti-tails seems = pointless; why not {broda ko'a}(dot conventions in place of course)? Why no= t a whole sentence rather than just a sumti-tail (I assume a whole sentence= can't be a degenerate case of a sumti-tail)?  Why not {la la} and {la= ui}?  Since any string ending in a consonant can become a name, why n= ot any string at all? 
As one way out of t= his, note that some names do not require {la}: {mi}, {do}, and a few more.&= nbsp; They are distinguished out by enumeration.  cmevla are distingui= shed by structure.  Maybe they should join the list of {la}-less names= .  Then {la} snaps back to apply to sumti-tails only and, while slightly odd, is a mere descriptor again, without all the resulting proble= ms of unwelcome {la} phrases.
I think that covers th= e muck.

From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gma= il.com>
To: lojban@= googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:06 AM
S= ubject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla




On Sun, Jun 9, 201= 3 at 11:31 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

There appear to be two choices.  One is that {la} functions like {= le} etc. making a special kind of description out of a brivla or bridi tail= or what have you. 


It's called a sumti-tail, a brivla being the simplest case of sumti-tail. "= broda brode", "me ko'a", "nu broda", "broda be ko'e", "ci broda", "poi brod= a ku'o brode", etc are all examples of sumti-tail, which can be names, but = they are not (single) brivla. OTOH "broda ko'a" is a bridi-tail and it is n= ot a possible name.

"la", just like any member of LE,= turns a sumti-tail into a sumti. But unlike members of LE, it can also tur= n chains of one or more cmevla into a sumti.

 = ;
In that case, cmevla are just an odd sort of brivla, requiring {la} to fun= ction as names and other wise serving as predicates meaning "x1 is named by= this string": {mi pycyn} is well-formed and nothing special. 


They aren'= t with the current grammar, but the argument is that they should be.
<= div>
 
On the other hand, {la} is special in t= hat it  turns a brivla into a soundstring and then uses that string as= a name. 

That's what "la" does, ex= cept of course when all it does is take something that is already nothing b= ut a soundstring, in which case it doesn't need to turn it into anything, j= ust use it as a name.
 
In that case, cmevla are a separate category, since they name without the need for {la}
Rather, they are already mere soundstrings. They ne= ed "la" (or "doi") in order to name. 
 
(although the rules do require its use).  {la}turns a brivla into a cm= ene. 

"la" turn= s either a sumti-tail (of which brivla are the most basic type) or a chain = of one or more consonant-ending soundstrings into a name,

The expansions fairly clearly favor the second view, but are, of course, n= ot strictly official.

The expansion  "la broda -> zo'e noi lu broda li'u cmene ke= 'a" does not particularly favor or oppose the merge of cm= evla with brivla. All the merge does is provide a rather obvious meaning to= the otherwise meaningless consonant-ending soundstrings, so that they too = can be used as brivla, and so that they don't require a special and more re= stricted syntax.

mu'o mi'e xorx= es

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