Received: from mail-yh0-f58.google.com ([209.85.213.58]:51097) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UljgD-0002vX-Jy for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:30 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f58.google.com with SMTP id v1sf252568yhn.3 for ; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vYAHnCgEkeRmNhCpaOGGTv+aWe+amJfeKgwLxk+35YY=; b=MrZRzmElUvrs9Pqkp8gExMtxROJuLyQbVCCJBKTtMw5mRAiQBHK+6+h2iILVQ6Wn9i QYQNWGLd6rNyUg3T3yyMqoJpi2HG0he8m7VHytgV9Mexj9/xmOst53dk440MEc84HnDF RrHXT3vha1BQTSd6jV6azEBOSxX9Vgcu/DdHchQDG0+WstT/qriYgB3e/5BGZdMwfEp+ 5NeeNIo1L64IKCVDte928SdJAAKQLFPcoo2toE+FlLCwKzVBl0ycR+hi839fiLnfneZ7 hhR79G4IPat9HriVc9BuisC4vSacxadfhde+thNU0/nF8T5NngZTKvm6/z+8fS+ghd1p 1mAw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vYAHnCgEkeRmNhCpaOGGTv+aWe+amJfeKgwLxk+35YY=; b=g+ZjiIYFqwAQlKFUGIbTROl2/QUQLI+raObqQXpqoyMTveV7dUCoBpEZGHjroKcSCu 1GRhHiFUqLv4Vbiw82DqzPW2HqqBCGxyS7rDdEZq0bqxaxdS1FpQIUgQtnMTLOCIzD9R HyQWABCr7hHq/NkakldFeV4sBuk9NLlSI6BghgUD9eQMHsn/VnZmrZobeID6FwF3sicg PkerNZVw18Q61HThCUwMN/nIV1gviRO55VmOH3yHAcUKhZvo5HFK247oElBGnDpMKaEl n5yU+KocQSdm2qILWAwJqmB1s1yNm4F0Q/CZyEZCPKhpCV8g36BArc1ACYT+m/jRNK0z Lxwg== X-Received: by 10.49.17.42 with SMTP id l10mr264426qed.10.1370799918838; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.24.51 with SMTP id r19ls1237417qef.73.gmail; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.128.196 with SMTP id nq4mr945692veb.25.1370799918319; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22c.google.com (mail-ve0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q18si522225vdi.0.2013.06.09.10.45.18 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c; Received: by mail-ve0-f172.google.com with SMTP id jz10so4216249veb.31 for ; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.24.167 with SMTP id v7mr3273988vdf.20.1370799918138; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.21.67 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1370797620.87480.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <51A8680E.7040103@lojban.org> <51A8F326.2020901@lojban.org> <51A8F89D.2040408@gmx.de> <51B00097.8080004@lojban.org> <51B06D24.6020102@gmx.de> <51B46762.8080509@lojban.org> <51B47305.4020704@gmx.de> <20130609133526.GD24964@samsa.fritz.box> <51B48B09.2080709@gmx.de> <1370788283.82111.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1370797620.87480.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 14:45:18 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3071d05e2dcab204debc3a1d X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --20cf3071d05e2dcab204debc3a1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:07 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > > In Logic, names need to be distinct from descriptions, predicates, > variables, connectives, and so on. Does this carry over to Lojban? > I assume the question is rhetorical, but of course, those functions are distinct in Lojban. Those are different functions that a word may have. The same word can have different functions depending on its context. > cmevla, which play a part in names, are structurally distinct from all > other words in Lojban, so could, presumably, play the role of names. They > currently play a part in no other Lojban constructions than names. > Not quite true. "djan zei pol", for example, is a predicate in which cmevla play a constitutive part. Lojban predicates are, for the most part, not single words. And the same can be said of Lojban names. > To be used as names, cmevla must be preceded by {la}, etc., of LE, the > class of descriptors, > ("la" is in selmaho LA, not currently a member of LE, although the merge of BRIVLA and CMEVLA would also merge LE and LA.) [...] > On the other hand, if {la}+ a particular sumti-tail, is distinct from > {la}+ another sumti-tail created by expanding the original in the usual way > for missing sumti, then {la} is not a descriptor, but rather a meta device > for turning any string of sounds into a name. But then the restriction to > sumti-tails seems pointless; why not {broda ko'a}(dot conventions in place > of course)? Why not a whole sentence rather than just a sumti-tail (I > assume a whole sentence can't be a degenerate case of a sumti-tail)? Why > not {la la} and {la ui}? Since any string ending in a consonant can become > a name, why not any string at all? > Because it would be ambiguous. Would "mi klama la broda ko'a" mean "I go to the one named "broda ko'a", or "I go to the one named "broda", from ko'a? > As one way out of this, note that some names do not require {la}: {mi}, > {do}, and a few more. > I'm not sure what you are looking for a way out of, at this point. > They are distinguished out by enumeration. cmevla are distinguished by > structure. Maybe they should join the list of {la}-less names. Then {la} > snaps back to apply to sumti-tails only and, while slightly odd, is a mere > descriptor again, without all the resulting problems of unwelcome {la} > phrases. > I think that covers the muck. > If I understand what you are proposing, you would want: mi klama paris rom to mean "I go to Paris from Rome", and you would disallow compound names, such as is currently "la paris rom". I don't really see the point though. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --20cf3071d05e2dcab204debc3a1d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:07 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

In Logic, names need to be distinct from descriptions, predicates,= variables, connectives, and so on. Does this carry over to Lojban?

I assume the question is rheto= rical, but of course, those functions are distinct in Lojban. Those are dif= ferent functions that a word may have. The same word can have different fun= ctions depending on its context.
=A0
cmevla, whi= ch play a part in names, are structurally distinct from all other words in = Lojban, so could, presumably, play the role of names.=A0 They currently pla= y a part in no other Lojban constructions than names.=A0

Not quite true. "dj= an zei pol", for example, is a predicate in which cmevla play a consti= tutive part. Lojban predicates are, for the most part, not single words. An= d the same can be said of Lojban names.
=A0
To be used as names, = cmevla must be preceded by {la}, etc., of LE, the class of descriptors,

("la" is in selmaho = LA, not currently a member of LE, although the merge of BRIVLA and CMEVLA w= ould also merge LE and LA.)
=A0
[...]
On the ot= her hand, if {la}+ a particular sumti-tail, is distinct from {la}+ another = sumti-tail created by expanding the original in the usual way for missing s= umti, then {la} is not a descriptor, but rather a meta device for turning any string = of sounds into a name.=A0 But then the restriction to sumti-tails seems poi= ntless; why not {broda ko'a}(dot conventions in place of course)? Why n= ot a whole sentence rather than just a sumti-tail (I assume a whole sentenc= e can't be a degenerate case of a sumti-tail)?=A0 Why not {la la} and {= la ui}?=A0 Since any string ending in a consonant can become a name, why no= t any string at all?=A0

Because it = would be ambiguous. Would "mi klama la broda ko'a" mean "= ;I go to the one named "broda ko'a", or "I go to the one= named "broda", from ko'a?

=A0
As one way out of this, note that some names do not require {la}: {mi}, {d= o}, and a few more.=A0

I'm not sure what you are = looking for a way out of, at this point.
=A0
They are= distinguished out by enumeration.=A0 cmevla are distinguished by structure= .=A0 Maybe they should join the list of {la}-less names.=A0 Then {la} snaps= back to apply to sumti-tails only and, while slightly odd, is a mere descriptor again, without all the resulting proble= ms of unwelcome {la} phrases.
I think that covers the muck.





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