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[66.94.237.95]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v15si811192igr.1.2013.06.09.13.20.01 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Jun 2013 13:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.95 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.95; Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm30.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2013 20:20:00 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.101] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2013 20:20:00 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2013 20:20:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 736807.80057.bm@omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 77004 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jun 2013 20:20:00 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 9Ivbn0wVM1kaLetKasksPY.V15cLfTglPZYMlBrqdgCcInG sFZ94s71urhIIJ4lf9r_ZLjtVaBe9h9zLUBXhtAY0hzG_MWljGnNFmd2hHFm QtFfo1c7860jeIssxqdVjmtlXCLfvoirpXrQF882ZqPQPAqlTKr2.1UCgkIb BZkmHyZh.mmtlma9015zkSE8cVPci3Uq.fswzn339M3tXhm74rZO1eezcEVD iYbBXenbu8_RYAQQT_Gi3IjmWaOfZ_uRpaWWHGwXCucy6sStDi9BmkU0q5mU j3trTiaYmfFW.GU2j0ly2NyJVDx4f9y_L56Hpnqm_E.g76TM4HEIij3dkF0M djqlr7YrAYkomhRCil7D2t8ocvktNo5wVsAIhCHsruI2GvPe3p1R8i0fYd.o _XWaPj8QqLQPz0oNEJRpw6zV_YJuCjjv_EJxr1GrhwOB2PmVF17fM3jSJF4x S0qh9kdYzET1aFSNDAXOHPmkedZf62.uZWbjP.15CkMowIdrfOy3ufbosEFd 1jJ5HjzevPh_Q1y3Oqsv7pmOXY2ULosThDD8r8QzgccN0jdPKmkBQ0HTu2Vr 7DWEmiZgOBV6OAt_p0HW4dHOWypzAC1zJH8ujsLED3nFcfFVLO_CexjFxz1D exVCMR52zNtM0CItZuvgsPwBHtlrdTwL7llDHS3R.my__Oy4MK.QskHP5H6T iB5KmRzLWmzdmO5UdbASSNxmLcytm5VnHPbsml70KvkPAvmwtfMw3F9y1Y5p rZ0ClhLGEG.u38nY- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 13:20:00 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,VGhlIG5hbWUtb3RoZXJzIGRpc3RpbmN0aW9uIGluIGxvZ2ljIGlzwqAgbm90IGFib3V0IGZ1bmN0aW9uIChhbHRob3VnaCB0aGF0LCB0b28pIGJ1dCBhYm91dCBmb3JtLiBDb3VsZCBMb2piYW4gbmFtZXMgbG9vayBqdXN0IGxpa2Ugb3RoZXIgZXhwcmVzc2lvbnM_wqAgVGhleSBkb24ndCwgYnV0IHRoYXQgaXMgbm90IHRoZSBpc3N1ZS4KCldoYXQga2luZCBvZiBhIHByZWRpY2F0ZSBpcyB7ZGphbiB6ZWkgcG9sfT8gSXQgaXMgc2FpZCB0byBoYXZlIGx1anZvIGdsdWUsIGJ1dCBkb2VzIG5vdCBhcHBlYXIgdG8BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.145.547 References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <51A8680E.7040103@lojban.org> <51A8F326.2020901@lojban.org> <51A8F89D.2040408@gmx.de> <51B00097.8080004@lojban.org> <51B06D24.6020102@gmx.de> <51B46762.8080509@lojban.org> <51B47305.4020704@gmx.de> <20130609133526.GD24964@samsa.fritz.box> <51B48B09.2080709@gmx.de> <1370788283.82111.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1370797620.87480.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1370809200.78493.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.95 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1412092350-171076993-1370809200=:78493" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---1412092350-171076993-1370809200=:78493 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The name-others distinction in logic is=A0 not about function (although tha= t, too) but about form. Could Lojban names look just like other expressions= ?=A0 They don't, but that is not the issue. What kind of a predicate is {djan zei pol}? It is said to have lujvo glue, = but does not appear to be any sort of lujvo (not that I can remember all ni= ne-and-ninety rules for lujvo, but they all seemed to end up with something= with an early CC and a final vowel).=A0 In any case, the role that {djan} = and {pol} seem to play here is precisely that of names, indicating the auto= nymy of cmevla (adding to the list that includes vocatives and probably oth= er special uses of names, as, apparently, here). Ah, yes, LE can't be used with cmevla so LA is special.=A0 Since the point = here is that, even applied to sumti-tails, LA is special, the merger doesn'= t seem a particularly good idea. The ambiguity is the reason -- as always -- for dotside. The problem is the one-hand, other-hand just mentioned. Two things.=A0 I suspect that we have different understandings from the vol= umes on the topic of the nature and power of dotside.=A0 So I would allow c= ompound names, just have the total demarcated.=A0 And I am not suggesting d= oing away with {LA CMEVLA}, since that would ruin too much archival materia= l.=A0 The point is just that it could be done (and, retrospectively, should= have been). ________________________________ From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla =20 On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:07 PM, John E Clifford wrot= e: > In Logic, names need to be distinct from descriptions, predicates, variable= s, connectives, and so on. Does this carry over to Lojban? > I assume the question is rhetorical, but of course, those functions are dis= tinct in Lojban. Those are different functions that a word may have. The sa= me word can have different functions depending on its context. =A0 cmevla, which play a part in names, are structurally distinct from all othe= r words in Lojban, so could, presumably, play the role of names.=A0 They cu= rrently play a part in no other Lojban constructions than names.=A0=20 > Not quite true. "djan zei pol", for example, is a predicate in which cmevla= play a constitutive part. Lojban predicates are, for the most part, not si= ngle words. And the same can be said of Lojban names. =A0 To be used as names, cmevla must be preceded by {la}, etc., of LE, the clas= s of descriptors,=20 ("la" is in selmaho LA, not currently a member of LE, although the merge of= BRIVLA and CMEVLA would also merge LE and LA.) =A0 [...] On the other hand, if {la}+ a particular sumti-tail, is distinct from {la}+= another sumti-tail created by expanding the original in the usual way for = missing sumti, then {la} is not a descriptor, but rather a meta device for = turning any string of sounds into a name.=A0 But then the restriction to su= mti-tails seems pointless; why not {broda ko'a}(dot conventions in place of= course)? Why not a whole sentence rather than just a sumti-tail (I assume = a whole sentence can't be a degenerate case of a sumti-tail)?=A0 Why not {l= a la} and {la ui}?=A0 Since any string ending in a consonant can become a n= ame, why not any string at all?=A0=20 > Because it would be ambiguous. Would "mi klama la broda ko'a" mean "I go to= the one named "broda ko'a", or "I go to the one named "broda", from ko'a? =A0 As one way out of this, note that some names do not require {la}: {mi}, {do= }, and a few more.=A0 I'm not sure what you are looking for a way out of, at this point. =A0 They are distinguished out by enumeration.=A0 cmevla are distinguished by s= tructure.=A0 Maybe they should join the list of {la}-less names.=A0 Then {l= a} snaps back to apply to sumti-tails only and, while slightly odd, is a me= re descriptor again, without all the resulting problems of unwelcome {la} p= hrases. >I think that covers the muck. If I understand what you are proposing, you would want: =A0 =A0mi klama paris rom to mean "I go to Paris from Rome", and you would disallow compound names, s= uch as is currently "la paris rom". I don't really see the point though. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ---1412092350-171076993-1370809200=:78493 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The name-others disti= nction in logic is  not about function (although that, too) but about = form. Could Lojban names look just like other expressions?  They don't= , but that is not the issue.

What kind of a predicate is {djan zei p= ol}? It is said to have lujvo glue, but does not appear to be any sort of l= ujvo (not that I can remember all nine-and-ninety rules for lujvo, but they= all seemed to end up with something with an early CC and a final vowel).&n= bsp; In any case, the role that {djan} and {pol} seem to play here is preci= sely that of names, indicating the autonymy of cmevla (adding to the list t= hat includes vocatives and probably other special uses of names, as, appare= ntly, here).

Ah, yes, LE can't be used with cmevla so LA is special.=   Since the point here is that, even applied to sumti-tails, LA is special, the merger doesn't seem a particularly good idea.

The a= mbiguity is the reason -- as always -- for dotside.

The problem is t= he one-hand, other-hand just mentioned.

Two things.  I suspect = that we have different understandings from the volumes on the topic of the = nature and power of dotside.  So I would allow compound names, just ha= ve the total demarcated.  And I am not suggesting doing away with {LA = CMEVLA}, since that would ruin too much archival material.  The point = is just that it could be done (and, retrospectively, should have been).
=


From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of bri= vla


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at = 2:07 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

In Logic, names need to be distinct from descriptions, predica= tes, variables, connectives, and so on. Does this carry over to Lojban?
=

I assume the question is = rhetorical, but of course, those functions are distinct in Lojban. Those ar= e different functions that a word may have. The same word can have differen= t functions depending on its context.
 
cmevla, which play a part in names, are structurally distinc= t from all other words in Lojban, so could, presumably, play the role of na= mes.  They currently play a part in no other Lojban constructions than= names. 

Not quite true. "dj= an zei pol", for example, is a predicate in which cmevla play a constitutiv= e part. Lojban predicates are, for the most part, not single words. And the= same can be said of Lojban names.
 
= To be used as names, cmevla must be preceded by {la}, etc., of LE, the clas= s of descriptors,

("la" is in selmaho LA, n= ot currently a member of LE, although the merge of BRIVLA and CMEVLA would = also merge LE and LA.)
 
[...]
O= n the other hand, if {la}+ a particular sumti-tail, is distinct from {la}+ = another sumti-tail created by expanding the original in the usual way for m= issing sumti, then {la} is not a descriptor, but rather a meta device for turning any string = of sounds into a name.  But then the restriction to sumti-tails seems = pointless; why not {broda ko'a}(dot conventions in place of course)? Why no= t a whole sentence rather than just a sumti-tail (I assume a whole sentence= can't be a degenerate case of a sumti-tail)?  Why not {la la} and {la= ui}?  Since any string ending in a consonant can become a name, why n= ot any string at all? 

Becaus= e it would be ambiguous. Would "mi klama la broda ko'a" mean "I go to the o= ne named "broda ko'a", or "I go to the one named "broda", from ko'a?

 
<= span>As one way out of this, note that some names do not require {la}: {mi}= , {do}, and a few more. 

I'm not sure what you are look= ing for a way out of, at this point.
 
<= blockquote class=3D"yiv1838736436gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo= rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
= They are distinguished out by enumeration.  cmevla are distinguished b= y structure.  Maybe they should join the list of {la}-less names. = ; Then {la} snaps back to apply to sumti-tails only and, while slightly odd, is a mere descriptor again, without all the resulting proble= ms of unwelcome {la} phrases.
I think that covers the muck.

If I understand what you are proposing, you wo= uld want:

   mi kl= ama paris rom

to mean "I go to Paris from Rome", and you would = disallow compound names, such as is currently "la paris rom". I don't reall= y see the point though.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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