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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 14:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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A Lojban name that looks like another expression?=A0 If there are some, we =
have a whole new set of problems, since the name-other distinction is funda=
mental.

And the predicate here created means?=A0 Presumably the composition rules s=
till applies (if not, there is yet another problem) so, lacking any other i=
nformation this means "is John-Paul" or "is John and Paul", though what {ui=
 zei pi'o} means (and why we would want it) is beyond me.

My understanding of the cumulative effect of dotside is that every *name* m=
ust be surrounded by glottal stops (which otherwise do not except between f=
inal and initial vowels, i.e., phonemically conditioned).=A0 Thus, {.paris.=
rom.} is distinct from {. paris rom.}


________________________________
 From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:20 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrot=
e:

The name-others distinction in logic is=A0 not about function (although tha=
t, too) but about form. Could Lojban names look just like other expressions=
?=A0 They don't, but that is not the issue.
>

Some do, some don't.

=A0
What kind of a predicate is {djan zei pol}? It is said to have lujvo glue, =
but does not appear to be any sort of lujvo (not that I can remember all ni=
ne-and-ninety rules for lujvo, but they all seemed to end up with something=
 with an early CC and a final vowel).=A0

"zei" joins (almost) any two words into a predicate. (There are a few excep=
tional words, "zei" itself being one of them, that's why it's "almost" any =
two words.)

=A0
Two things.=A0 I suspect that we have different understandings from the vol=
umes on the topic of the nature and power of dotside.=A0

I suspect so too. All dotside does is allow cmevla to contain the syllables=
 doi/la/lai/la'i, at the price of requiring a dot at the beginning of every=
 cmevla. You seem to think it's something much more powerful.

=A0
So I would allow compound names, just have the total demarcated.=A0=20

Demarcated how? ".djan. .smit." can't be both one compound name consisting =
of two cmevla, and also two sumti. If you allowed compound names it couldn'=
t be two sumti.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">A Lojban name that lo=
oks like another expression?&nbsp; If there are some, we have a whole new s=
et of problems, since the name-other distinction is fundamental.<br><br>And=
 the predicate here created means?&nbsp; Presumably the composition rules s=
till applies (if not, there is yet another problem) so, lacking any other i=
nformation this means "is John-Paul" or "is John and Paul", though what {ui=
 zei pi'o} means (and why we would want it) is beyond me.<br><br>My underst=
anding of the cumulative effect of dotside is that every *name* must be sur=
rounded by glottal stops (which otherwise do not except between final and i=
nitial vowels, i.e., phonemically conditioned).&nbsp; Thus, {.paris.rom.} i=
s distinct from {. paris rom.}<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></di=
v>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif;
 font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, t=
imes, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font fa=
ce=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span><=
/b> Jorge Llamb=EDas &lt;jjllambias@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 3:58 PM<br> <=
b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevl=
a as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><b=
r>
<div id=3D"yiv348076524"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"yiv348076524gma=
il_extra"><div class=3D"yiv348076524gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:2=
0 PM, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@ya=
hoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv348076524gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12=
pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">The name-others di=
stinction in logic is&nbsp; not about function (although that, too) but abo=
ut form. Could Lojban names look just like other expressions?&nbsp; They do=
n't, but that is not the issue.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">Some do, some don't=
.</div><div style=3D""><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv3=
48076524gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex;"><div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, =
serif;">What kind of a predicate is {djan zei pol}? It is said to have lujv=
o glue, but does not appear to be any sort of lujvo (not that I can remembe=
r all nine-and-ninety rules for lujvo, but they all seemed to end up with s=
omething with an early CC and a final vowel).&nbsp;</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">"zei" joins (almost) any =
two words into a predicate. (There are a few exceptional words, "zei" itsel=
f being one of them, that's why it's "almost" any two words.)</div>
<div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv348076524gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"=
><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, t=
imes, serif;">Two things.&nbsp; I suspect that we have different understand=
ings from the volumes on the topic of the nature and power of dotside.&nbsp=
;</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">I suspect so too. All dot=
side does is allow cmevla to contain the syllables doi/la/lai/la'i, at the =
price of requiring a dot at the beginning of every cmevla. You seem to thin=
k it's something much more powerful.</div>
<div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv348076524gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"=
><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, t=
imes, serif;"> So I would allow compound names, just have the total demarca=
ted.&nbsp; </div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">Demarcated how? ".djan. .=
smit." can't be both one compound name consisting of two cmevla, and also t=
wo sumti. If you allowed compound names it couldn't be two sumti.</div>
<div><br></div><div style=3D"">mu'o mi'e xorxes</div><div style=3D""><br></=
div></div></div></div>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
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