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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:15:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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Ah, use-mention.=A0 In order to mention a name, you have to use a name of t=
hat name (or some other device, but we;re in names here).=A0 So xorxes has =
it right here, using English conventions, to talk about the name next *disp=
layed*: la'o gy Starbucks gy=A0 he uses the name of that name, here display=
ed:"la'o gy Starbucks gy". possibly including a bit too much, in the form o=
f {la'o}.=A0 Ian avoids the contentious issue of {la'o}, but now double quo=
tes, getting too far up the scale.=A0 He wants to talk about the names here=
 displayed: gy Starbucks gy ,djan smit,=A0 selpa'i.
To do that, he needs names of them, quotation names under Lojban convention=
s, namely=A0 zoi gy Starbucks gy,=A0 lu djan smit, zo selpa'i.=A0 But rathe=
r than using these he uses the quotation names of these, using metaLojban c=
onventions, and thus talks not about the names he intended but about their =
quotation names, which refer, of course to other quotation names, not Starb=
ucks, John Smith and whoever selpa'i is.=A0=20


________________________________
 From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>A cmevla is any Lojban word that ends in a consonant.
>>
>>
>>Examples of (single) cmene that are not (single) cmevla are: "la'o gy Sta=
rbucks gy", "la djan smit", "la selpa'i"
>>
>>
>>It is useful to be able to distinguish the special word form "cmevla" fro=
m the more general notion of cmene. These two concepts used to be confused =
when cmevla were called cmene, since not all cmene have the form of cmevla.
>>
>>
>While I know what you meant, you made a basic mistake: named-things are no=
t themselves names. {zoi gy Starbucks gy}, {lu djan smit}, and {zo selpa'i}=
 are cmene that are not single cmevla.
>

I was talking about the expressions, not the things named by the expression=
s, that's why they are in quotes. But you could argue that the articles are=
 not part of the name.=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Ah, use-mention.&nbsp=
; In order to mention a name, you have to use a name of that name (or some =
other device, but we;re in names here).&nbsp; So xorxes has it right here, =
using English conventions, to talk about the name next *displayed*: la'o gy=
 Starbucks gy&nbsp; he uses the name of that name, here displayed:"la'o gy =
Starbucks gy". possibly including a bit too much, in the form of {la'o}.&nb=
sp; Ian avoids the contentious issue of {la'o}, but now double quotes, gett=
ing too far up the scale.&nbsp; He wants to talk about the names here displ=
ayed: gy Starbucks gy ,djan smit,&nbsp; selpa'i.<br>To do that, he needs na=
mes of them, quotation names under Lojban conventions, namely&nbsp; zoi gy =
Starbucks gy,&nbsp; lu djan smit, zo selpa'i.&nbsp; But rather than using t=
hese he uses the quotation names of these, using metaLojban
 conventions, and thus talks not about the names he intended but about thei=
r quotation names, which refer, of course to other quotation names, not Sta=
rbucks, John Smith and whoever selpa'i is.&nbsp; <br><div><span><br></span>=
</div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york=
, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new rom=
an, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=
=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bol=
d;">From:</span></b> Jorge Llamb=EDas &lt;jjllambias@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><=
span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <b=
r> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, June 9, 2=
013 7:58 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> R=
e: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_=
msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1816454599"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"yiv1816454599g=
mail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1816454599gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at =
9:51 PM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"m=
ailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blindbravado=
@gmail.com">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv1816454599gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"yiv1816454599gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1816454599gmail_quote"><div cla=
ss=3D"yiv1816454599im">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"yiv1816454599gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv1816454599gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1=
816454599gmail_quote"><div>A cmevla is any Lojban word that ends in a conso=
nant.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Examples of (single) cmene that are not (single) cmevla=
 are: "la'o gy Starbucks gy", "la djan smit", "la selpa'i"</div><div><br></=
div><div>
It is useful to be able to distinguish the special word form "cmevla" from =
the more general notion of cmene. These two concepts used to be confused wh=
en cmevla were called cmene, since not all cmene have the form of cmevla.</=
div>

<div>
<div><br></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>While I know=
 what you meant, you made a basic mistake: named-things are not themselves =
names. {zoi gy Starbucks gy}, {lu djan smit}, and {zo selpa'i} are cmene th=
at are not single cmevla.<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">I was t=
alking about the expressions, not the things named by the expressions, that=
's why they are in quotes. But you could argue that the articles are not pa=
rt of the name.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">mu'o mi'e xorxes</div><div style=
=3D""><br></div></div></div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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