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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Alas, what you say may be practically correct, but is logically wrong.=A0 A=
ll predicates must have all arguments in place.=A0 If we omit some at the s=
urface level, they have to be restored uniquely at some level before interp=
retation.=A0 At the moment, Lojban does not have a way of doing this.=A0 As=
 you note, following CLL, sometime there just isn't something for that slot=
 -- which means, of course, that we have the predicate wrong, if not the ot=
her places.=A0 On the other hand, when there is something there, we have no=
 clear way of saying what should go there: the obvious value (I suppose thi=
s is sorta {zo'e}) or the any value that makes the whole true (presumably {=
da}), but no rule as to which to pick (and {zo'e}'s use here does not fit w=
ell with its use in "definitions" of gadri).=A0=20


________________________________
 From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:31 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrot=
e:

Well, Lojbab's position is close to incomprehensible to me, too, but he has=
 maintained it for several days now without falter: if {la tsani} is somebo=
dy's name, then {la tsani be zo'e} is that person's name as well, just as i=
f {lo tsani} is a correct description of a thing {lo tsani be zo'e} is.=20
>
(Underline added for clarity.)

This is itself slightly controversial, essentially because it is occasional=
ly impractical. Some of us have started thinking of the default unfilled pl=
ace as {zi'o .u zo'e}, essentially "while I'm not explicitly claiming that =
there is something here, you should keep in mind that there might be."


mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Alas, what you say ma=
y be practically correct, but is logically wrong.&nbsp; All predicates must=
 have all arguments in place.&nbsp; If we omit some at the surface level, t=
hey have to be restored uniquely at some level before interpretation.&nbsp;=
 At the moment, Lojban does not have a way of doing this.&nbsp; As you note=
, following CLL, sometime there just isn't something for that slot -- which=
 means, of course, that we have the predicate wrong, if not the other place=
s.&nbsp; On the other hand, when there is something there, we have no clear=
 way of saying what should go there: the obvious value (I suppose this is s=
orta {zo'e}) or the any value that makes the whole true (presumably {da}), =
but no rule as to which to pick (and {zo'e}'s use here does not fit well wi=
th its use in "definitions" of gadri).&nbsp;
 <br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family=
: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D=
"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <=
div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span=
 style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ian Johnson &lt;blindbravado@=
gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojb=
an@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span>=
</b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 7:53 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"=
>Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> <=
/div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv500816915"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv500816915gmail_e=
xtra"><div class=3D"yiv500816915gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:31 PM=
, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.=
com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv500816915gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12=
pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;"><div><span>Well, L=
ojbab's position is close to incomprehensible to me, too, but he has mainta=
ined it for several days now without falter: if {la tsani} is somebody's na=
me, then {la tsani be zo'e} is that person's name as well, <u>just as if {l=
o tsani} is a correct description of a thing {lo tsani be zo'e} is. </u><br=
>
</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div>(Underline added for clarity.)<b=
r><br>This is itself slightly controversial, essentially because it is occa=
sionally impractical. Some of us have started thinking of the default unfil=
led place as {zi'o .u zo'e}, essentially "while I'm not explicitly claiming=
 that there is something here, you should keep in mind that there might be.=
"<br>
<br></div><div>mi'e la latro'a mu'o<br></div></div></div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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