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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:28:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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Sorry to have been abbreviated: I should have been explicit in saying "refe=
rs to the object that fills the first place in this instance of the relatio=
n" or some such thing.

I have no idea why selpa'i picked his name (and I doubt you do), indeed, I =
didn't bother thinking about what it meant until this discussion go started=
 and then I assumed he picked it because his name was "David" or some such =
thing.=A0 But whatever it is, it is clearly irrelevant to the name as a nam=
e and so is, at best, a direction to follow in a psychological inquiry, har=
dly a claim about how names from predicates work.=A0=20


________________________________
 From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:31 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrot=
e:

As for your position, you have said it explicitly several times: {la tsani}=
 refers to the first place of {tsani}.=A0=20

I'm pretty sure I never said that. "la tsani" refers to a person, not to th=
e first place of a predicate. I do think however that what the first argume=
nt of a selbri chosen as a name is is relevant to the choice of that word a=
s a name. We wouldn't have so many people choosing names that begin with se=
l- if that was not the case.

You do manage to wiggle a lot on that, making {la} even vaguer than {le}.=
=A0 The point is that, if you really agree with the view that {la} just use=
s the word detached from its semantics and syntax as much as may be, you ha=
ve no ground for talking about the first place of the predicate that word h=
appens most normally to be.=A0 But in talking about selpa'i you placed him =
in the first position and Lb supplied the second. =A0

I said that the reason he chose the name "selpa'i" rather than the name "pr=
ami" was probably not just because he liked the sound more. The different m=
eanings of the two predicates (reflected only in the order of their argumen=
ts) probably had something to do with his choice. If I remember correctly, =
la selckiku chose his name because of his relationship with someone named K=
ey in English.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Sorry to have been ab=
breviated: I should have been explicit in saying "refers to the object that=
 fills the first place in this instance of the relation" or some such thing=
.<br><br>I have no idea why selpa'i picked his name (and I doubt you do), i=
ndeed, I didn't bother thinking about what it meant until this discussion g=
o started and then I assumed he picked it because his name was "David" or s=
ome such thing.&nbsp; But whatever it is, it is clearly irrelevant to the n=
ame as a name and so is, at best, a direction to follow in a psychological =
inquiry, hardly a claim about how names from predicates work.&nbsp; <br><di=
v><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times =
new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-fa=
mily: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div
 dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jorge Llamb=EDas &lt;jjllambias@=
gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojb=
an@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span>=
</b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 4:55 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"=
>Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> <=
/div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv438996233"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"yiv438996233gma=
il_extra"><div class=3D"yiv438996233gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:3=
1 PM, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@ya=
hoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv438996233gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-s=
tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;">
<div><span style=3D"background-color:transparent;">As for your position, yo=
u have said it explicitly several times: {la
 tsani} refers to the first place of {tsani}.&nbsp; </span></div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">I'm pretty sure I never said =
that. "la tsani" refers to a person, not to the first place of a predicate.=
 I do think however that what the first argument of a selbri chosen as a na=
me is is relevant to the choice of that word as a name. We wouldn't have so=
 many people choosing names that begin with sel- if that was not the case.<=
/div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv438996233gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt;">
<div><span style=3D"background-color:transparent;">You do manage to wiggle =
a lot on that, making {la} even vaguer than {le}.&nbsp; The point is that, =
if you really agree with the view that {la} just uses the word detached fro=
m its semantics and syntax as much as may be, you have no ground for talkin=
g about the first place of the predicate that word happens most normally to=
 be.&nbsp; But in talking about selpa'i you placed him in the first positio=
n and Lb supplied the second. &nbsp;</span></div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">I said that the rea=
son he chose the name "selpa'i" rather than the name "prami" was probably n=
ot just because he liked the sound more. The different meanings of the two =
predicates (reflected only in the order of their arguments) probably had so=
mething to do with his choice. If I remember correctly, la selckiku chose h=
is name because of his relationship with someone named Key in English.</div=
>
<div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">mu'o mi'e xorxes</div><div style=
=3D""><br></div></div></div></div>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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