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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:44:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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I suppose it means something like "me la sapir joi la worf", but that is be=
cause I can immediately thing of a use for it.=A0 What I have more trouble =
doing is seeing it as a selbri, standing alone, rather than as a part of a =
tanru.

I do think this talk about a documented baseline has about worn out its use=
fulness.=A0 It started when it became clear that the grammar in CLL did not=
 correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban.=A0 But it was predicated o=
n somebody actually doing the documentation and in the intervening two deca=
des, no one has even made a pass at that.=A0 So, why not go back to CLL.=A0=
 Say that *is* the baseline and largely wrong and then start to build the n=
ew normal, incorporating suggestions as they come along and get accepted, r=
ather than waiting for the Baseline (who is do a week after the Messiah and=
 two after Elijah).=A0 That ids, in fact, the way people have been behaving=
 for most of Lojban's history but there have been no controls on them becau=
se "it is not yet the time to make changes".=A0 Too bad, the changes just g=
et made, even if they are dumb.=A0 Better to hash them out and issue decree=
s now then try to patch things up later (much later, since after the
 baseline).

So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about dropping {la} =
with cmevla).


________________________________
 From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

On Sunday, June 09, 2013 13:20:00 John E Clifford wrote:
> The name-others distinction in logic is=A0 not about function (although t=
hat,
> too) but about form. Could Lojban names look just like other expressions?=
=20
> They don't, but that is not the issue.
>=20
> What kind of a predicate is {djan zei pol}?=20

A predicate with completely unclear place structure. How about=20
"sapir.zei.uorf"?

On Sunday, June 09, 2013 17:09:14 Robert LeChevalier wrote:
> Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> > I'm also pretty sure your problem is not with that. You oppose the merg=
e
> > of CMEVLA with BRIVLA because you oppose any changes to the language.
>=20
> I do so oppose=A0 - prior to the documentation baseline.=A0 I've actually
> not taken a position on the so-called "merge" proposal, as I think has
> been described in the thread.

I oppose this merge both before and after the baseline.

On Sunday, June 09, 2013 14:16:24 John E Clifford wrote:
> My understanding of the cumulative effect of dotside is that every *name*
> must be surrounded by glottal stops (which otherwise do not except betwee=
n
> final and initial vowels, i.e., phonemically conditioned).=A0 Thus,
> {.paris.rom.} is distinct from {. paris rom.}

".paris.rom." is identical to ".paris rom.". Both are one cmene composed of=
=20
two cmevla. ".paris,rom." is identical to ".parisrom.". Both are one single=
=20
cmevla.

Taking C=F4te d'Ivoire as an example, ".kot.divuar." and ".kot divuar." are=
 the=20
same, whereas ".kot,divuar." and ".kotdivuar." are both invalid because a=
=20
voiced stop cannot be next to a voiceless stop.

Pierre
--=20
loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji

--=20
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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">I suppose it means so=
mething like "me la sapir joi la worf", but that is because I can immediate=
ly thing of a use for it.&nbsp; What I have more trouble doing is seeing it=
 as a selbri, standing alone, rather than as a part of a tanru.<br><br>I do=
 think this talk about a documented baseline has about worn out its usefuln=
ess.&nbsp; It started when it became clear that the grammar in CLL did not =
correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban.&nbsp; But it was predicated=
 on somebody actually doing the documentation and in the intervening two de=
cades, no one has even made a pass at that.&nbsp; So, why not go back to CL=
L.&nbsp; Say that *is* the baseline and largely wrong and then start to bui=
ld the new normal, incorporating suggestions as they come along and get acc=
epted, rather than waiting for the Baseline (who is do a week after
 the Messiah and two after Elijah).&nbsp; That ids, in fact, the way people=
 have been behaving for most of Lojban's history but there have been no con=
trols on them because "it is not yet the time to make changes".&nbsp; Too b=
ad, the changes just get made, even if they are dumb.&nbsp; Better to hash =
them out and issue decrees now then try to patch things up later (much late=
r, since after the baseline).<br><br>So, for example, I use dotside prime. =
(and am thinking about dropping {la} with cmevla).<br><div><span><br></span=
></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new yor=
k, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new ro=
man, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=
=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bol=
d;">From:</span></b> Pierre Abbat &lt;phma@bezitopo.org&gt;<br> <b><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><=
span
 style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:23 PM=
<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban]=
 cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_contain=
er"><br>
On Sunday, June 09, 2013 13:20:00 John E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; The name-o=
thers distinction in logic is&nbsp; not about function (although that,<br>&=
gt; too) but about form. Could Lojban names look just like other expression=
s? <br>&gt; They don't, but that is not the issue.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; What ki=
nd of a predicate is {djan zei pol}? <br><br>A predicate with completely un=
clear place structure. How about <br>"sapir.zei.uorf"?<br><br>On Sunday, Ju=
ne 09, 2013 17:09:14 Robert LeChevalier wrote:<br>&gt; Jorge Llamb=EDas wro=
te:<br>&gt; &gt; I'm also pretty sure your problem is not with that. You op=
pose the merge<br>&gt; &gt; of CMEVLA with BRIVLA because you oppose any ch=
anges to the language.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I do so oppose&nbsp; - prior to the=
 documentation baseline.&nbsp; I've actually<br>&gt; not taken a position o=
n the so-called "merge" proposal, as I think has<br>&gt; been described in =
the thread.<br><br>I oppose this merge both before and after the
 baseline.<br><br>On Sunday, June 09, 2013 14:16:24 John E Clifford wrote:<=
br>&gt; My understanding of the cumulative effect of dotside is that every =
*name*<br>&gt; must be surrounded by glottal stops (which otherwise do not =
except between<br>&gt; final and initial vowels, i.e., phonemically conditi=
oned).&nbsp; Thus,<br>&gt; {.paris.rom.} is distinct from {. paris rom.}<br=
><br>".paris.rom." is identical to ".paris rom.". Both are one cmene compos=
ed of <br>two cmevla. ".paris,rom." is identical to ".parisrom.". Both are =
one single <br>cmevla.<br><br>Taking C=F4te d'Ivoire as an example, ".kot.d=
ivuar." and ".kot divuar." are the <br>same, whereas ".kot,divuar." and ".k=
otdivuar." are both invalid because a <br>voiced stop cannot be next to a v=
oiceless stop.<br><br>Pierre<br>-- <br>loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji<br=
><br>-- <br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo=
gle Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop
 receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:uns=
ubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">uns=
ubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a y=
mailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroup=
s.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at http://groups.go=
ogle.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https:=
//groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google=
.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></b=
ody></html>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

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