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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:47:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Yes, that is what {zi'o} does=A0 -- when it is overtly given.=A0 But it can=
not be slipped in after the utterance to clean up the mess and that is the =
case at hand.


________________________________
 From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 10:23 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wro=
te:

Alas, what you say may be practically correct, but is logically wrong.=A0 A=
ll predicates must have all arguments in place.=A0 If we omit some at the s=
urface level, they have to be restored uniquely at some level before interp=
retation.=A0 At the moment, Lojban does not have a way of doing this.=A0 As=
 you note, following CLL, sometime there just isn't something for that slot=
 -- which means, of course, that we have the predicate wrong, if not the ot=
her places.=A0 On the other hand, when there is something there, we have no=
 clear way of saying what should go there: the obvious value (I suppose thi=
s is sorta {zo'e}) or the any value that makes the whole true (presumably {=
da}), but no rule as to which to pick (and {zo'e}'s use here does not fit w=
ell with its use in "definitions" of gadri).=A0=20
>
This is outright incorrect as it pertains to Lojban. {zi'o} exists to build=
 new semi-nonce predicates that don't include places of existing predicates=
.


mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Yes, that is what {zi=
'o} does&nbsp; -- when it is overtly given.&nbsp; But it cannot be slipped =
in after the utterance to clean up the mess and that is the case at hand.<b=
r><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: t=
imes new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"fo=
nt-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div=
 dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ian Johnson &lt;blindbravado@gma=
il.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@=
googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b=
> Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:28 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Su=
bject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </di=
v> <div
 class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv592588239"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv592588239gmail_e=
xtra"><div class=3D"yiv592588239gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 10:23 P=
M, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo=
.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv592588239gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12=
pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">Alas, what you say=
 may be practically correct, but is logically wrong.&nbsp; All predicates m=
ust have all arguments in place.&nbsp; If we omit some at the surface level=
, they have to be restored uniquely at some level before interpretation.&nb=
sp; At the moment, Lojban does not have a way of doing this.&nbsp; As you n=
ote, following CLL, sometime there just isn't something for that slot -- wh=
ich means, of course, that we have the predicate wrong, if not the other pl=
aces.&nbsp; On the other hand, when there is something there, we have no cl=
ear way of saying what should go there: the obvious value (I suppose this i=
s sorta {zo'e}) or the any value that makes the whole true (presumably {da}=
), but no rule as to which to pick (and {zo'e}'s use here does not fit
 well with its use in "definitions" of gadri).&nbsp;
 <br></div></div></blockquote><div>This is outright incorrect as it pertain=
s to Lojban. {zi'o} exists to build new semi-nonce predicates that don't in=
clude places of existing predicates.<br><br></div><div>mi'e la latro'a mu'o=
<br>
</div></div></div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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