Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.90 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.90;
References: <CAHxnAmJvBZ1_4S1OF45n3dd5g2iQmFEGiQbsyBTN6PwybsNkrA@mail.gmail.com> <51A379EF.3020803@gmx.de> <CAHxnAm+HZGvy=Ck9nvogsR_uHL=+BYPho6vDKe8WGp-H4xKmEA@mail.gmail.com> <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <CAMKwHj3gpou-t-6wPOLP7TCXdGhVGU2z+H-z4g=yGJK8Yg2gEg@mail.gmail.com> <51A8680E.7040103@lojban.org> <CAMKwHj3+aWwW0E3QP271aRNP8oKMy9hNDipjypX6hhJkauM+_A@mail.gmail.com> <51A8F326.2020901@lojban.org> <51A8F89D.2040408@gmx.de> <51B00097.8080004@lojban.org> <51B06D24.6020102@gmx.de> <51B46762.8080509@lojban.org> <51B47305.4020704@gmx.de> <CAHxnAmLDUzkGG14rFY9i-TUoOsBwEobXzj+dRV5GOZ-zqg2LNg@mail.gmail.com> <1370811519.81380.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2fwYJQcj9QPZ4Bo7r+yYE-B9-gauEWWHg8CPFNE_hU9MA@mail.gmail.com> <1370813476.27765.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <CA+gZtgKe_m8+sbokF2X6UtHzqh6LP9qk64NTDYp1SpYzzdcAog@mail.gmail.com> <1370830982.63258.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <CA+gZtgJyXrgQmewdd-9gVMwRDG3Ci4DRH3BWuwMbo8GZgyzqzA@mail.gmail.com> <1370832319.64624.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1370832533.27835.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:48:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <1370832319.64624.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-926090574-1370832533=:27835"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--1789658926-926090574-1370832533=:27835
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oops, this goes on the previous message.


________________________________
 From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20


Unfortunately, we are in English and you have missed the mark.


________________________________
 From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 10:23 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wro=
te:

Alas, what you say may be practically correct, but is logically wrong.=A0 A=
ll predicates must have all arguments in place.=A0 If we omit some at the s=
urface level, they have to be restored uniquely at some level before interp=
retation.=A0 At the moment, Lojban does not have a way of doing this.=A0 As=
 you note, following CLL, sometime there just isn't something for that slot=
 -- which means, of course, that we have the predicate wrong, if not the ot=
her places.=A0 On the other hand, when there is something there, we have no=
 clear way of saying what should go there: the obvious value (I suppose thi=
s is sorta {zo'e}) or the any value that makes the whole true (presumably {=
da}), but no rule as to which to pick (and {zo'e}'s use here does not fit w=
ell with its use in "definitions" of gadri).=A0=20
>
This is outright incorrect as it pertains to Lojban. {zi'o} exists to build=
 new semi-nonce predicates that don't include places of existing predicates=
.


mi'e la latro'a mu'o

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0


--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--1789658926-926090574-1370832533=:27835
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Oops, this goes on th=
e previous message.<br><div><span></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=
=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"=
> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-=
size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> John E Cliffo=
rd &lt;kali9putra@yahoo.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">T=
o:</span></b> "lojban@googlegroups.com" &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; <br=
> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, June 9, 20=
13 9:45 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re=
: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_m=
sg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv920002862"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#ff=
f;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">Unfo=
rtunately, we are in English and you have missed the mark.<br><div><span></=
span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new =
york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family:times new ro=
man, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D=
"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;"=
>From:</span></b> Ian Johnson &lt;blindbravado@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><=
span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:28=
 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojba=
n] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"yiv92000286=
2y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv920002862"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv920002862gmail_e=
xtra"><div class=3D"yiv920002862gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 10:23 P=
M, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo=
.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv920002862gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12=
pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">Alas, what you say=
 may be practically correct, but is logically wrong.&nbsp; All predicates m=
ust have all arguments in place.&nbsp; If we omit some at the surface level=
, they have to be restored uniquely at some level before interpretation.&nb=
sp; At the moment, Lojban does not have a way of doing this.&nbsp; As you n=
ote, following CLL, sometime there just isn't something for that slot -- wh=
ich means, of course, that we have the predicate wrong, if not the other pl=
aces.&nbsp; On the other hand, when there is something there, we have no cl=
ear way of saying what should go there: the obvious value (I suppose this i=
s sorta {zo'e}) or the any value that makes the whole true (presumably {da}=
), but no rule as to which to pick (and {zo'e}'s use here does not fit
 well with its use in "definitions" of gadri).&nbsp;
 <br></div></div></blockquote><div>This is outright incorrect as it pertain=
s to Lojban. {zi'o} exists to build new semi-nonce predicates that don't in=
clude places of existing predicates.<br><br></div><div>mi'e la latro'a mu'o=
<br>
</div></div></div></div>


-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br>
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br>
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https=
://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o=
ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></div>


-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br>
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br>
Visit this group at <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://gr=
oups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https=
://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o=
ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--1789658926-926090574-1370832533=:27835--