Received: from mail-lb0-f184.google.com ([209.85.217.184]:43290) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UltHF-0006Oc-Bn for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:36 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f184.google.com with SMTP id 13sf310437lba.11 for ; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Z4bKLtS/qq6LjHfavSsYiVxLDEeYHrSR24863SgwK20=; b=dKWnRpSPgdC0CSqb0HNfZjSbAm214wuCFqgdYAhzpiu3PG0taBXwKwCENu+mzHZRLy 2ufOC1MP8W/250i4BIiqWUHAtw3RjItLaZyPOsPev5/uVHxjBVqxE98d6Ki+TKPbsXCX W/Fa04TGpRTkVwY9K/J/dLtxc8bTLUxfP6h44PceSPJ5YamdJBmhH/BMreSMeyWMCg6o s5z1oq7mUiDj+ep7J2uO9XUHel9uk4MqjAcDgrsoN06wQbLQfdB6iPLdD+62sLLhm0Wu q8CpE/ubxzfvw/cGUt30rWZIpnqqYFGl9hrGoNiolUwQa2o9Qxax2GZhNqCvy9P2zquA 8Nhw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Z4bKLtS/qq6LjHfavSsYiVxLDEeYHrSR24863SgwK20=; b=uyGmV1DyPoLNiUvhNRQlZj67RVP9ARuv061buzNv6wcKnQNjdFzRN36Ksnh+klgaqf 44b0rLGUBQBJWRUnUMTWdzLtDc/MMI1K/jFsTQ1uJW86yp8rnoKii3khJWv1XEjFkvdO Jx+sDi/ToDLje9OKEyEm56WM6L7GCoXLoxOFZpyo2b+tawTV3g5enymKnQbpXYI1bXle P+0oB9szYBYwDZGOKpQ3HTZ/MHHJ6PBhy+f4AF63HXvBIqBvUjpwmCN1fBXUypFNeO5V TEFT3pBSfzAxrATkMxDSdT2hcrzVSuXwEIYzFbKsNH8FDpe4X4z2OQHCd6fDVum3IvZO X9TQ== X-Received: by 10.180.185.236 with SMTP id ff12mr318401wic.11.1370836809074; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.76.6 with SMTP id g6ls711458wiw.0.gmail; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.226.13 with SMTP id iu13mr22203bkb.3.1370836808497; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22d.google.com (mail-la0-x22d.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rl1si571745bkb.3.2013.06.09.21.00.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d; Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id fr10so5277057lab.4 for ; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.3.74 with SMTP id a10mr4012852laa.74.1370836808087; Sun, 09 Jun 2013 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.21.38 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Jun 2013 21:00:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1370832256.72062.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <1370809200.78493.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1572136.Rc9a1FkyGG@caracal> <1370832256.72062.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 22:00:07 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d11c6fdbd8504dec4d01d X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e013d11c6fdbd8504dec4d01d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:44 PM, John E Clifford wrote= : > I suppose it means something like "me la sapir joi la worf", but that is > because I can immediately thing of a use for it. What I have more troubl= e > doing is seeing it as a selbri, standing alone, rather than as a part of = a > tanru. > > I do think this talk about a documented baseline has about worn out its > usefulness. It started when it became clear that the grammar in CLL did > not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban. But it was predicate= d > on somebody actually doing the documentation and in the intervening two > decades, no one has even made a pass at that. > That's not entirely true. Lindar did quite a lot of work on it not that long ago, actually. > So, why not go back to CLL. Say that *is* the baseline and largely wrong > and then start to build the new normal, incorporating suggestions as they > come along and get accepted, rather than waiting for the Baseline (who is > do a week after the Messiah and two after Elijah). That ids, in fact, th= e > way people have been behaving for most of Lojban's history but there have > been no controls on them because "it is not yet the time to make changes"= . > Too bad, the changes just get made, even if they are dumb. Better to has= h > them out and issue decrees now then try to patch things up later (much > later, since after the baseline). > > So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about dropping {la= } > with cmevla). > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Pierre Abbat > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:23 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla > > On Sunday, June 09, 2013 13:20:00 John E Clifford wrote: > > The name-others distinction in logic is not about function (although > that, > > too) but about form. Could Lojban names look just like other > expressions? > > They don't, but that is not the issue. > > > > What kind of a predicate is {djan zei pol}? > > A predicate with completely unclear place structure. How about > "sapir.zei.uorf"? > > On Sunday, June 09, 2013 17:09:14 Robert LeChevalier wrote: > > Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > > I'm also pretty sure your problem is not with that. You oppose the > merge > > > of CMEVLA with BRIVLA because you oppose any changes to the language. > > > > I do so oppose - prior to the documentation baseline. I've actually > > not taken a position on the so-called "merge" proposal, as I think has > > been described in the thread. > > I oppose this merge both before and after the baseline. > > On Sunday, June 09, 2013 14:16:24 John E Clifford wrote: > > My understanding of the cumulative effect of dotside is that every *nam= e* > > must be surrounded by glottal stops (which otherwise do not except > between > > final and initial vowels, i.e., phonemically conditioned). Thus, > > {.paris.rom.} is distinct from {. paris rom.} > > ".paris.rom." is identical to ".paris rom.". Both are one cmene composed > of > two cmevla. ".paris,rom." is identical to ".parisrom.". Both are one > single > cmevla. > > Taking C=F4te d'Ivoire as an example, ".kot.divuar." and ".kot divuar." a= re > the > same, whereas ".kot,divuar." and ".kotdivuar." are both invalid because a > voiced stop cannot be next to a voiceless stop. > > Pierre > -- > loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e013d11c6fdbd8504dec4d01d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:44 PM, John E C= lifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
I suppose it means something like "me la sapir joi la worf&qu= ot;, but that is because I can immediately thing of a use for it.=A0 What I= have more trouble doing is seeing it as a selbri, standing alone, rather t= han as a part of a tanru.

I do think this talk about a documented baseline has about worn out its= usefulness.=A0 It started when it became clear that the grammar in CLL did= not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban.=A0 But it was predicat= ed on somebody actually doing the documentation and in the intervening two = decades, no one has even made a pass at that.=A0

That's not entirely true. Lindar did quite = a lot of work on it not that long ago, actually.

=A0
So, why not go back to CLL.=A0 Say that *is* the baseline and larg= ely wrong and then start to build the new normal, incorporating suggestions= as they come along and get accepted, rather than waiting for the Baseline = (who is do a week after the Messiah and two after Elijah).=A0 That ids, in fact, the way people ha= ve been behaving for most of Lojban's history but there have been no co= ntrols on them because "it is not yet the time to make changes".= =A0 Too bad, the changes just get made, even if they are dumb.=A0 Better to= hash them out and issue decrees now then try to patch things up later (muc= h later, since after the baseline).

So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about dropping {= la} with cmevla).


From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 = 9:23 PM

Subject:<= /span> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla

On Sunday, June 09, 2013 13:20:00 John E Clifford wrote:
> The name-o= thers distinction in logic is=A0 not about function (although that,
>= too) but about form. Could Lojban names look just like other expressions? =
> They don't, but that is not the issue.
>
> What kind = of a predicate is {djan zei pol}?

A predicate with completely uncle= ar place structure. How about
"sapir.zei.uorf"?

On Sun= day, June 09, 2013 17:09:14 Robert LeChevalier wrote:
> Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> > I'm also pretty sure your pro= blem is not with that. You oppose the merge
> > of CMEVLA with BRI= VLA because you oppose any changes to the language.
>
> I do s= o oppose=A0 - prior to the documentation baseline.=A0 I've actually
> not taken a position on the so-called "merge" proposal, as I= think has
> been described in the thread.

I oppose this merge= both before and after the baseline.

On Sunday, June 09, 2013 14:16:24 John E Clifford wrote:<= br>> My understanding of the cumulative effect of dotside is that every = *name*
> must be surrounded by glottal stops (which otherwise do not = except between
> final and initial vowels, i.e., phonemically conditioned).=A0 Thus,> {.paris.rom.} is distinct from {. paris rom.}

".paris.rom= ." is identical to ".paris rom.". Both are one cmene compose= d of
two cmevla. ".paris,rom." is identical to ".parisrom.".= Both are one single
cmevla.

Taking C=F4te d'Ivoire as an ex= ample, ".kot.divuar." and ".kot divuar." are the
same, whereas ".kot,divuar." and ".kotdivuar." are both= invalid because a
voiced stop cannot be next to a voiceless stop.
<= br>Pierre
--
loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji

--
You rec= eived this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lo= jban" group.
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
= For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.




--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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