Received: from mail-ye0-f184.google.com ([209.85.213.184]:35643) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Um2cj-0003FE-3Y for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:59:17 -0700 Received: by mail-ye0-f184.google.com with SMTP id m1sf1279711yen.11 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cX3y3r+iNCsDYUU7s6dajaEjDoYrf44ko96qpyKBdE8=; b=DmimkaJELEvzR9RaoQ0CtrCiMf0GNYf/CYD87lyU9QH5H/U/9qPqMAwNJCd684QFsU BSaWm8PB5fXZRlxflHk+NqE6xtR8qGyD3ZmnW7tyLDh8O1siiC1hAbmIbiS2qsrIWAu2 73XGmXANA9Ua1YNpvmUDq8y1R7FDNc6okd04eno1BgVRt04VBtCJP3OKBzDgSqu3M/w3 wEjHPz67bOGwjIfWi0SrfJBSraSDafzeZLyw8U1COOO/AYJiUxhEJvSdmcZ04ixj0Cuq 5mIGS3hfOpUtIkXijnl83swUbkY/U8uC3PTMaK2aM3+CidI7g3x9Hy3YJr742bwDexFq OTpg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cX3y3r+iNCsDYUU7s6dajaEjDoYrf44ko96qpyKBdE8=; b=QyBfaz0GuPHBJzPlXV9eGGqWFdl9n1vp0K38e9IjB6iMZ0aWc90fbjW1tEedNeoFm5 744uU4tp424KBL6A4/21ZLFpunlw2mgorZS/uChZ/JZTHKJVQaTQEF9mlp8tm1ph0VV2 F2SouQsk1bhCbceO+Uat/UyOQCSwjcBIf8aeRz+BbF8gBXs9ldzjaEv+BF4JpWUCwpr9 fnmDJiWmklnNTytl20WkqyMW3DE/Z/L0gtLpLpw3idssvYWFnj+DuSL+70Muq+JtdeGE /LXWQI5R8Ndepl9zqMpHcKqmndUqVx1Zmdd4J1O6qHsp4U6PJT1Z/AbmcLlWyODZv/ib QG9g== X-Received: by 10.50.127.231 with SMTP id nj7mr806253igb.17.1370872738168; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.134.232 with SMTP id pn8ls2150251igb.32.canary; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.65.104 with SMTP id w8mr5978496igs.1.1370872737196; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22a.google.com (mail-ie0-x22a.google.com [2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z3si1127438igz.1.2013.06.10.06.58.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a; Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id e11so568120iej.29 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.55.10 with SMTP id n10mr4119133igp.60.1370872736677; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.212.34 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:58:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1370870235.94786.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <1370809200.78493.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1572136.Rc9a1FkyGG@caracal> <1370832256.72062.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51B5A9D9.8030701@gmx.de> <1370870235.94786.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:58:56 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla From: Remo Dentato To: lojban X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ffbae7780870b04decd2e15 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8ffbae7780870b04decd2e15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm not sure if this has already been addressed. Has anyone already checked the impact of the Merge on the formal grammar (I guess the PEG one is the one currently mantained, or is anyone looking at the YACC one?) On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 3:17 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Well, speaking of serendipity! I made a careless error, but it turns out > to provide your answer. I said I was dropping {la} with cmevla, but I > meant cmene. Still, if I stick to what I *said*, the problem (the one you > mention at least) is solved. {mi klama paris berlin} gives destination and > origin, {mi klama la paris berlin} gives only a strange destination. Of > course, if I want to add that I took the TGV or came to that strange > destination from Rome, I might get new problems. Back to the drawing board! > > ------------------------------ > *From:* selpa'i > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2013 5:26 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla > > la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e > > I do think this talk about a documented baseline has about worn out its > > usefulness. > > Yes! Finally someone says this openly. > > > It started when it became clear that the grammar in CLL did > > not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban. But it was > > predicated on somebody actually doing the documentation and in the > > intervening two decades, no one has even made a pass at that. So, why > > not go back to CLL. Say that *is* the baseline and largely wrong and > > then start to build the new normal, incorporating suggestions as they > > come along and get accepted, rather than waiting for the Baseline (who > > is do a week after the Messiah and two after Elijah). > > I would love that. > > > That ids, in > > fact, the way people have been behaving for most of Lojban's history but > > there have been no controls on them because "it is not yet the time to > > make changes". Too bad, the changes just get made, even if they are > > dumb. Better to hash them out and issue decrees now then try to patch > > things up later (much later, since after the baseline). > > That's kind of what I keep saying. > > > So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about dropping > > {la} with cmevla). > > Hehe :P. You would still need to show how you would distinguish between > {mi klama .paris. .berlin.} "I go to Paris from Berlin" and {mi klama > .paris.berlin.} "I go to Paris-Berlin" (whatever that is). How do you > distinguish between cmevla strings that form a single sumti together and > cmevla strings that don't? You cannot simply remove the middle dot there, > because *{.parisberlin.} has an illegal consonant pair. I assume you would > use a JOI to glue them and have them be seperate otherwise? > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8ffbae7780870b04decd2e15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure if this has already been addressed. Has a= nyone already checked the impact of the Merge on the formal grammar (I gues= s the PEG one is the one currently mantained, or is anyone looking at the Y= ACC one?)


On Mon,= Jun 10, 2013 at 3:17 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>= wrote:
Well, speaking of serend= ipity!=A0 I made a careless error, but it turns out to provide your answer.= =A0 I said I was dropping {la} with cmevla, but I meant cmene.=A0 Still, if= I stick to what I *said*, the problem (the one you mention at least) is so= lved.=A0 {mi klama paris berlin} gives destination and origin, {mi klama la= paris berlin} gives only a strange destination.=A0 Of course,=A0 if I want= to add that I took the TGV=A0 or came to that strange destination from Rom= e, I might get new problems.=A0 Back to the drawing board!

= From: = selpa'i <seladwa= @gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
<= span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 5:26= AM

Subject: Re: [lojban] c= mevla as a class of brivla
=

la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> I do think this talk about a documente= d baseline has about worn out its
> usefulness.

Yes! Finally s= omeone says this openly.

> It started when it became clear that t= he grammar in CLL did
> not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban.=A0 But it was
&= gt; predicated on somebody actually doing the documentation and in the
&= gt; intervening two decades, no one has even made a pass at that.=A0 So, wh= y
> not go back to CLL.=A0 Say that *is* the baseline and largely wrong an= d
> then start to build the new normal, incorporating suggestions as = they
> come along and get accepted, rather than waiting for the Basel= ine (who
> is do a week after the Messiah and two after Elijah).

I would l= ove that.

> That ids, in
> fact, the way people have been b= ehaving for most of Lojban's history but
> there have been no con= trols on them because "it is not yet the time to
> make changes".=A0 Too bad, the changes= just get made, even if they are
> dumb.=A0 Better to hash them out a= nd issue decrees now then try to patch
> things up later (much later,= since after the baseline).

That's kind of what I keep saying.

> So, for example, I u= se dotside prime. (and am thinking about dropping
> {la} with cmevla)= .

Hehe :P. You would still need to show how you would distinguish be= tween {mi klama .paris. .berlin.} "I go to Paris from Berlin" and= {mi klama .paris.berlin.} "I go to Paris-Berlin" (whatever that = is). How do you distinguish between cmevla strings that form a single sumti= together and cmevla strings that don't? You cannot simply remove the m= iddle dot there, because *{.parisberlin.} has an illegal consonant pair. I = assume you would use a JOI to glue them and have them be seperate otherwise= ?

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban"= group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it= , send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at = http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--e89a8ffbae7780870b04decd2e15--