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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 09:38:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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 Content preview:  anaphoric pronouns, reduplicated connectives, right ends of
    various constructions (to match the intentions, not just fit the rules).
   That'll do for starters and all of them about practical things. Whether cmevla
    are brevla is definitely not in the list; it is about saving a handful of
    lines in a grammar. Well, it depends upon what you mean by a real users group.
    I don't know what the figures are for Lojban (nor how they might be arrived
    at) but, at the moment, at least Klingon, Dothraki, Na'vi, and toki pona
   that I know of claim followings in the hundreds (again, I have no idea where
    the numbers come from). As for simplicity, assuming there were some objective
    measure of that, I doubt that Lojban would do that well against, say, toki
    pona, even setting aside the problem of learning 10,000 words or so. Even
    Esperanto is simpler -- for educated Westerners -- than Lojban (even including
    vocab learning). Don't worry about splitting the community; it never was
   nor ever could be a unity. We will go on, squabbling every inch of the way
    and yet come up with a decent language at any given point and any given speaker.
    [...] 
 
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anaphoric pronouns, reduplicated connectives, right ends of various constru=
ctions (to match the intentions, not just fit the rules).=A0 That'll do for=
 starters and all of them about practical things. Whether cmevla are brevla=
 is definitely not in the list; it is about saving a handful of lines in a =
grammar.
Well, it depends upon what you mean by a real users group.=A0 I don't know =
what the figures are for Lojban (nor how they might be arrived at) but, at =
the moment, at least Klingon, Dothraki, Na'vi, and toki pona that I know of=
 claim followings in the hundreds (again, I have no idea where the numbers =
come from).=A0 As for simplicity, assuming there were some objective measur=
e of that, I doubt that Lojban would do that well against, say, toki pona, =
even setting aside the problem of learning 10,000 words or so.=A0 Even Espe=
ranto=A0 is simpler -- for educated Westerners -- than Lojban (even includi=
ng vocab learning).
Don't worry about splitting the community; it never was nor ever could be a=
 unity.=A0 We will go on, squabbling every inch of the way and yet come up =
with a decent language at any given point and any given speaker.

(Note: speaking as a logician, there is a right way, or at least several eq=
ually right ways, and as a result, a large number of wrong ways.=A0 None of=
 those are listed above=A0 but are high on my personal list.)


________________________________
 From: v4hn <me@v4hn.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 08:06:12AM -0700, John E Clifford wrote:
> And,of course, others of us think that what needs discussing is grammar, =
to get it right.
> Vocabulary arises as it is needed but we are way ahead of any uses in tha=
t area.
> How we put that stuff together, however, is what makes for a logical lang=
uage,
> and there there are apparent gaps and inconsistencies.

There is no "right".
What's the huge inconsistency of cmevla not being brivla?
I followed the thread but apparently this is
neither about "gaps" nor inconsistency.

It's about changing things that work and worked fine for
quite some time just because people call unnecessary "simplifications"
progress - Lojban ba'e already is the most simple language (with a real use=
r group)
I know - instead of focussing on making the language more usable in
everyday life (which I would call progress).

Additionally, such discussions only split the community
even further until everyone got "his/her personal xorlo".
It's just that probably none of them would then ever be
implemented for everyone.


v4hn

--=20
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--1789658926-357459337-1370882316=:50803
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">anaphoric pronouns, r=
eduplicated connectives, right ends of various constructions (to match the =
intentions, not just fit the rules).&nbsp; That'll do for starters and all =
of them about practical things. Whether cmevla are brevla is definitely not=
 in the list; it is about saving a handful of lines in a grammar.<br>Well, =
it depends upon what you mean by a real users group.&nbsp; I don't know wha=
t the figures are for Lojban (nor how they might be arrived at) but, at the=
 moment, at least Klingon, Dothraki, Na'vi, and toki pona that I know of cl=
aim followings in the hundreds (again, I have no idea where the numbers com=
e from).&nbsp; As for simplicity, assuming there were some objective measur=
e of that, I doubt that Lojban would do that well against, say, toki pona, =
even setting aside the problem of learning 10,000 words or so.&nbsp;
 Even Esperanto&nbsp; is simpler -- for educated Westerners -- than Lojban =
(even including vocab learning).<br>Don't worry about splitting the communi=
ty; it never was nor ever could be a unity.&nbsp; We will go on, squabbling=
 every inch of the way and yet come up with a decent language at any given =
point and any given speaker.<br><br>(Note: speaking as a logician, there is=
 a right way, or at least several equally right ways, and as a result, a la=
rge number of wrong ways.&nbsp; None of those are listed above&nbsp; but ar=
e high on my personal list.)<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>=
  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-=
size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, =
serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"=
Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> v4=
hn &lt;me@v4hn.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span><=
/b>
 lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</=
span></b> Monday, June 10, 2013 10:26 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:=
 bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </=
font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 08:06:12AM -0700, John E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; An=
d,of course, others of us think that what needs discussing is grammar, to g=
et it right.<br>&gt; Vocabulary arises as it is needed but we are way ahead=
 of any uses in that area.<br>&gt; How we put that stuff together, however,=
 is what makes for a logical language,<br>&gt; and there there are apparent=
 gaps and inconsistencies.<br><br>There is no "right".<br>What's the huge i=
nconsistency of cmevla not being brivla?<br>I followed the thread but appar=
ently this is<br>neither about "gaps" nor inconsistency.<br><br>It's about =
changing things that work and worked fine for<br>quite some time just becau=
se people call unnecessary "simplifications"<br>progress - Lojban ba'e alre=
ady is the most simple language (with a real user group)<br>I know - instea=
d of focussing on making the language more usable in<br>everyday life (whic=
h I would call progress).<br><br>Additionally, such discussions only
 split the community<br>even further until everyone got "his/her personal x=
orlo".<br>It's just that probably none of them would then ever be<br>implem=
ented for everyone.<br><br><br>v4hn<br><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div>=
</body></html>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br />
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