Received: from mail-qa0-f55.google.com ([209.85.216.55]:41983) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Um6ky-0007Ns-Dt for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:23:57 -0700 Received: by mail-qa0-f55.google.com with SMTP id cm16sf1459173qab.20 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:23:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ctC9C+559xbOeUa/15w/ozgGjxYWSXb9RRqA7yV9ofk=; b=ZEqaO06tt/hCqIcta2ajGn37Yuvk51pBxBJBwN18iy23e8JgcCXjFuS1/SWPQdu1mG nPjhl5fs7oV+6R/DQrU9SC8K7ur3GFVzK8perBc9o7x8UpRsJlvaCPL+dXURT3lgYQRd IEnLRGyiqnPwQ6tiHQmSQuaTn0gzf6YgggIAbl6CYYRkL5UagsuF4QoLjIPQuEZgpodM /0fD1YsXlCWGzwCwQ1yzqeEVKhRzeObamRQ6CC3xrmV2s4DD+T/OqVOfj1Tv9BH7UL3i dpWQmQFsrd5NEUG4ud7vLbNVv7NFWe0NIy7ZVE/ax/Lga4adneU3obp2ixpl54wg1+lq ojaQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ctC9C+559xbOeUa/15w/ozgGjxYWSXb9RRqA7yV9ofk=; b=nkdv8uJZ66uWlAjBicwKbE2x/G1cBM2cPAuxGyMZB4L+mvyCyRcjlYbHbgCWDLcXPA /wU0/jHFx9QloGAjOEIvZm31FsqHdvr+5N7yBw6JecqPVHdZDVQtXqYMQSPCQH7ratl6 cFJtWB0DpbUX9T/GsqAe2zANNa5BzALq1sBvW8F+AyoMSkYMVvIj44A2/dhpLJ3YjW8G RMfm7sLVJ0t4qjClxtTn4i9pZNTDAaiVyWq0HVqSx+2NVmVFQJe15EcP+Gcop8E4TVTS SZ1Jwbkmf+j0bb/FbxjrQtnySDZOOF0bh6KKnmJWlIlEXS1i4L171jqAsL1WokI2fpgJ YBQA== X-Received: by 10.49.62.168 with SMTP id z8mr523428qer.11.1370888624992; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:23:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.132.38 with SMTP id or6ls1167894qeb.7.gmail; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.2.228 with SMTP id 4mr555545qex.3.1370888623649; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: John E Clifford Message-Id: <2dc0c809-8e2c-407a-8a8f-a0308aa60487@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <1370870235.94786.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <1370809200.78493.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1572136.Rc9a1FkyGG@caracal> <1370832256.72062.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51B5A9D9.8030701@gmx.de> <1370870235.94786.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7_3473929.1370888623386" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_7_3473929.1370888623386 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, June 10, 2013 5:17:15 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > Well, speaking of serendipity! I made a careless error, but it turns out > to provide your answer. I said I was dropping {la} with cmevla, but I > meant cmene. Still, if I stick to what I *said*, the problem (the one you > mention at least) is solved. {mi klama paris berlin} gives destination and > origin, {mi klama la paris berlin} gives only a strange destination. > i can't see internal consistency in this proposal. How would you say {mi viska la .maikl. .djakson.} ? With or without {la}? Can {la} be dropped only for one-cmevla names? Of course, if I want to add that I took the TGV or came to that strange > destination from Rome, I might get new problems. Back to the drawing board! > > ------------------------------ > *From:* selpa'i > > *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2013 5:26 AM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla > > la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e > > I do think this talk about a documented baseline has about worn out its > > usefulness. > > Yes! Finally someone says this openly. > > > It started when it became clear that the grammar in CLL did > > not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban. But it was > > predicated on somebody actually doing the documentation and in the > > intervening two decades, no one has even made a pass at that. So, why > > not go back to CLL. Say that *is* the baseline and largely wrong and > > then start to build the new normal, incorporating suggestions as they > > come along and get accepted, rather than waiting for the Baseline (who > > is do a week after the Messiah and two after Elijah). > > I would love that. > > > That ids, in > > fact, the way people have been behaving for most of Lojban's history but > > there have been no controls on them because "it is not yet the time to > > make changes". Too bad, the changes just get made, even if they are > > dumb. Better to hash them out and issue decrees now then try to patch > > things up later (much later, since after the baseline). > > That's kind of what I keep saying. > > > So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about dropping > > {la} with cmevla). > > Hehe :P. You would still need to show how you would distinguish between > {mi klama .paris. .berlin.} "I go to Paris from Berlin" and {mi klama > .paris.berlin.} "I go to Paris-Berlin" (whatever that is). How do you > distinguish between cmevla strings that form a single sumti together and > cmevla strings that don't? You cannot simply remove the middle dot there, > because *{.parisberlin.} has an illegal consonant pair. I assume you would > use a JOI to glue them and have them be seperate otherwise? > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_7_3473929.1370888623386 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, June 10, 2013 5:17:15 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Well, speaking of serendipity!  I made a careless error,= but it turns out to provide your answer.  I said I was dropping {la} = with cmevla, but I meant cmene.  Still, if I stick to what I *said*, t= he problem (the one you mention at least) is solved.  {mi klama paris = berlin} gives destination and origin, {mi klama la paris berlin} gives only= a strange destination.

i can't see internal consistency in this proposal.

How would you say {mi viska la .maikl. .djakson.} ? With or without = {la}?

Can {la} be dropped only for one-cmevla name= s?


  Of cour= se,  if I want to add that I took the TGV  or came to that strang= e destination from Rome, I might get new problems.  Back to the drawin= g board!


la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> I do think this talk about a documented ba= seline has about worn out its
> usefulness.

Yes! Finally someo= ne says this openly.

> It started when it became clear that the g= rammar in CLL did
> not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojba= n.  But it was
> predicated on somebody actually doing the docum= entation and in the
> intervening two decades, no one has even made a= pass at that.  So, why
> not go back to CLL.  Say that *is= * the baseline and largely wrong and
> then start to build the new no= rmal, incorporating suggestions as they
> come along and get accepted= , rather than waiting for the Baseline (who
> is do a week after the = Messiah and two after Elijah).

I would love that.

> That i= ds, in
> fact, the way people have been behaving for most of Lojban's= history but
> there have been no controls on them because "it is not yet the time to
> make changes".  Too bad, the changes j= ust get made, even if they are
> dumb.  Better to hash them out = and issue decrees now then try to patch
> things up later (much later= , since after the baseline).

That's kind of what I keep saying.
<= br>> So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about droppi= ng
> {la} with cmevla).

Hehe :P. You would still need to show = how you would distinguish between {mi klama .paris. .berlin.} "I go to Pari= s from Berlin" and {mi klama .paris.berlin.} "I go to Paris-Berlin" (whatev= er that is). How do you distinguish between cmevla strings that form a sing= le sumti together and cmevla strings that don't? You cannot simply remove t= he middle dot there, because *{.parisberlin.} has an illegal consonant pair= . I assume you would use a JOI to glue them and have them be seperate other= wise?

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to thi= s group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this gro= up at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more = options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


<= br>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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