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[66.94.237.220]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c2si656356igm.1.2013.06.10.13.35.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.220 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.220; Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jun 2013 20:35:12 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.110] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jun 2013 20:35:12 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jun 2013 20:35:12 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 753308.19634.bm@omp1015.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 37687 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jun 2013 20:35:12 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: q1ZkW9EVM1nsInRbgr8UvQcKFf8Z6SiEx_tIeFAM9.K6D28 ZDS9VFDpI4PPpUePg0AsMW_xLE44MDkbUCsQc2xs9_MXRARTADsD.125D3Km wwJdB0hUL_dTJ3jukDLzlOYTYEm6CY95_k3JCp0lECvd9ljr3qubcZwK3PIE 920fJqNGHrt.uXAjXLghbdBEIyFGHcc1jGKrn8C8d6.iI5OeWo.XSKMeOZT. OIyOLVliDPKdgxQ.lmonx4VK.Ua3q7AbN0ynVSaZ0VtRXfs3ARJbZ1uVeoLL s6lsfHfImMt8IS4y0T8c_DT46r37zMcnzBCEsABWbVDtR.sI4Q44kCmb7HvR i6BsFc7Xu5PlO1dh2_r3rwFMH8AiG2teNYb_vfZ7mD3vNaUm0b8dzxPnV2Zh 4fji_RH.Xq.PS93LlJnVNPggkcw8EEgAkHrXVmnPygVNFKCk_4pn0kd1qjiU iOx_g9NjofRVWlgengtyP8JMkHWfMmbj_18b3QEwKC9WT09DSfz7MECPC_Ji VgfsJkfPEdgtgqS17z9NHXf3tu0B3eZHX9Q1OE1M6bGxpDhxvfrYeIFmwWNx GEOfU6zg.Rs_gag3p5EFWuGwAcvxkML9KmrL2hbd7Ms36M12gWCO7f24lJyZ 6LriilDS4f3j1SkpABBZ9duxa4GdvQLCU7DvbB7ue4NjJeRcV7rE389f4t3g yYGzdrXQnewosXfHkB.Q6W7VYAtckOJeUdQEI_p2GXnW8R9Iu4p056TgPy1h IGKYYGXHXghE63Sgm6LdITYLQE9NSvPW5OKXanJ1B9K9YzhxmIoQoj.jXYjU DSzD35EBmeXUl0Foo5SKIaBLU9v350LBTkNSKe7QM Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:35:12 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,Rm9yIGEgdmFyaWV0eSBvZiByZWFzb25zLCB0aGlzIHR1cm5zIG91dCB0byBiZSBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGhhcmRlc3QgbGVzc29ucyBpbiBsb2dpYyBhbmQgZXZlbiBvbGQgcHJvcyBzY3JldyB1cCBvbiBpdCBldmVuIHdoZW4gdGhleSBhcmUgYmVpbmcgY2FyZWZ1bCAoYXMgSSBzaGFsbCBwcm9iYWJseSBkZW1vbnN0cmF0ZSBiZWZvcmUgdGhpcyBpcyBvdmVyLCBhbmQgbWF5IGhhdmUgYWxyZWFkeSkuwqAgV2Ugc3RhcnQgd2l0aCB0aGUgc2l0dWF0aW9uIHdoZXJlICJUaGUgUmVkIFBvbnkiIGlzIHRoZSB0aXRsZSABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.146.552 References: <4692dee7-2ebc-4e58-a772-38fb4df607e7@googlegroups.com> <1370876609.84282.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1370896512.24028.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] mi bacru tcidu la ko'a marji lo rectu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.220 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-420974808-1860293101-1370896512=:24028" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---420974808-1860293101-1370896512=:24028 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For a variety of reasons, this turns out to be one of the hardest lessons i= n logic and even old pros screw up on it even when they are being careful (= as I shall probably demonstrate before this is over, and may have already).= =A0 We start with the situation where "The Red Pony" is the title of a book= {lu le xunre cmaxirma li'u sinxa lo cukta}, so the referent of that expres= sion is the book {la'e lu le xunre cmaxirma li'u cukta}. Note that the refe= rent of=A0 "The Red Pony" would normally be a red pony, so this is an odd c= ase, hence the introduction.=A0 Now we get to {lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u}= which would ordinary stand for the sentence "He is made of meat".=A0 From = what goes on around this discussion, I gather that this sentence is again b= eing used as the name of something -- a book again?=A0 If that is so, then = the argument does indeed go through just as you claim -- and I worry a bit = about what {la'o} does (Ah, it does not quote first, so no=A0 problem).=A0 But in the absence of the special use here, {lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u} = refers=A0 to the enclosed sentence, so {lo'e lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u} i= s just that sentence and so a truth value.=A0 All this argues for different= quotes for different purposes, but that would mean a clutter of quotes as = well as the other clutters of trivia in the language, so skip that.=A0 In s= hort, you are right, given the context.=A0 And {la'o} is wrong because it i= s restricted to non-Lojban expressions anyhow.=A0=20 ________________________________ From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] mi bacru tcidu la ko'a marji lo rectu =20 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0While I don't deny that a la'o construction works fine, = I'm not sure why my version works any less than the example 10.3 in chapter= 6 of the CLL, =A0I expect you will assert the main difference is that the = one is a string quoting a sumti, and the other a string quoting a bridi, bu= t I assert that a string is a string is a string, and the referent of it is= always something with that tag(name). =A0This is fundamentally different t= hat say, "la'e 'di'u" which is usually taken to mean approx. "lo nu go'i" o= r "lo go'i" or "ri" or..., well pretty much a lot of vague somethings.... =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 11:03 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: Alas, that gives a reference to Truth or Falsity, since the referent of the= quoted sentence is a truth value.=A0 It's not clear what was intended. > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Michael Turniansky >To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 >Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 9:32 AM >Subject: Re: [lojban] mi bacru tcidu la ko'a marji lo rectu >=20 > > >lo nu galfi lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u lo cmene na cumki lo nu lidne jmin= a zo la .i do pu xusra lo du'u do =A0tcidu da noi se cmene lu la ko'a marji= li'u zi'e noi se ciska fi lo rectu zo'o .i ko pilno lu la'e lu=A0=A0ko'a m= arji lo rectu li'u li'u fi'o se basti ku > > >It's not possible to change "ko'a marji lo rectu" to a name by simply prep= ending "la". =A0You asserted you were reading something called "la ko'a mar= ji" (His Material)=A0 >which was written on meat! Use "la'e lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u" instead. > > >=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa > > > > > >On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:14 PM, lomicmenes wrote: > >coi >> >> >>.i mi bacru tcidu la ko'a marji lo rectu fi'e la teris.bisyn. fi'o fanva = fe'u la pier.abat. >>.i=A0le vreji >> >>.i xu lo mi selba'u cu drani >> >> >>mu'o mi'e lomicmenes=A0--=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>=A0 >>=A0 >> > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ---420974808-1860293101-1370896512=:24028 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For a variety of reasons= , this turns out to be one of the hardest lessons in logic and even old pro= s screw up on it even when they are being careful (as I shall probably demo= nstrate before this is over, and may have already).  We start with the= situation where "The Red Pony" is the title of a book {lu le xunre cmaxirm= a li'u sinxa lo cukta}, so the referent of that expression is the book {la'= e lu le xunre cmaxirma li'u cukta}. Note that the referent of  "The Re= d Pony" would normally be a red pony, so this is an odd case, hence the int= roduction.  Now we get to {lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u} which would or= dinary stand for the sentence "He is made of meat".  From what goes on around this discussion, I gather that this sentence is again being used= as the name of something -- a book again?  If that is so, then the ar= gument does indeed go through just as you claim -- and I worry a bit about = what {la'o} does (Ah, it does not quote first, so no  problem).  = But in the absence of the special use here, {lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u} r= efers  to the enclosed sentence, so {lo'e lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u}= is just that sentence and so a truth value.  All this argues for diff= erent quotes for different purposes, but that would mean a clutter of quote= s as well as the other clutters of trivia in the language, so skip that.&nb= sp; In short, you are right, given the context.  And {la'o} is wrong b= ecause it is restricted to non-Lojban expressions anyhow. 
= Fro= m: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 2= :24 PM
Subject: Re: [lo= jban] mi bacru tcidu la ko'a marji lo rectu

        &nbs= p;While I don't deny that a la'o construction works fine, I'm not sure why = my version works any less than the example 10.3 in chapter 6 of the CLL, &n= bsp;I expect you will assert the main difference is that the one is a strin= g quoting a sumti, and the other a string quoting a bridi, but I assert tha= t a string is a string is a string, and the referent of it is always someth= ing with that tag(name).  This is fundamentally different that say, "l= a'e 'di'u" which is usually taken to mean approx. "lo nu go'i" or "lo go'i"= or "ri" or..., well pretty much a lot of vague somethings....

      &nbs= p;  --gejyspa

On Mon, J= un 10, 2013 at 11:03 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Alas, that gives a reference to Truth o= r Falsity, since the referent of the quoted sentence is a truth value. = ; It's not clear what was intended.


From: Michael Turniansky <mturnia= nsky@gmail.com>
To:<= /b> lojban@googlegroups.com=
Sent: Monday, June 10, 201= 3 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: = [lojban] mi bacru tcidu la ko'a marji lo rectu

lo nu galfi lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u lo cmene na c= umki lo nu lidne jmina zo la .i do pu xusra lo du'u do  tcidu da noi s= e cmene lu la ko'a marji li'u zi'e noi se ciska fi lo rectu zo'o .i ko piln= o lu la'e lu  ko'a marji lo rectu li'u li'u fi'o se basti ku

It's not possible to change "ko'a marji lo rectu" to a name = by simply prepending "la".  You asserted you were reading something ca= lled "la ko'a marji" (His Material) 
which was written on meat! Use "la'e lu ko'a marji lo rectu li'u" inst= ead.

      --gejyspa

=


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:14 PM, lomicmenes <= lomicmenes@gmail.com>= wrote:
coi

.i mi bacru tcidu la ko'a marji lo rectu fi'e la ter= is.bisyn. fi'o fanva fe'u la pier.abat.
.i xu lo mi selba'u cu drani

mu'o mi'e = lomicmenes 
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