Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.215 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.215;
References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <1572136.Rc9a1FkyGG@caracal> <51B5AACD.8040106@gmx.de> <4765457.N8ok8LCe9x@caracal> <1370876772.5658.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130610152640.GH24964@samsa.fritz.box> <1370882316.50803.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130611001622.GJ24964@samsa.fritz.box>
Message-ID: <1370919436.83802.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <20130611001622.GJ24964@samsa.fritz.box>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1412092350-1913560883-1370919436=:83802"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

---1412092350-1913560883-1370919436=:83802
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You asked about gaps and inconsistencies.
Your point is that this is worrying trivia.=A0 Point taken and perpetually =
ignored.=A0 Serious problems take too much work.
Yeah, Dothraki (and High Valeryan now and whatever Dave's language on Defia=
nce is) and Klingon and Na'vi are small languages so far (though they all g=
o a long way beyond the scripts -=A0 don't forget Hamlet in Klingon), but t=
hey have a number of people who are learning (and have learned) themand mor=
e join up every day.=A0 toki pona is pretty complete; it is just unclear (h=
ence the interest in it) how much you can do with it.=A0 So far, no challen=
ges unmet -- but then, no really steep challenges offered either.=A0 It is =
not terribly clear what "full-fledged language" means; the tests that immed=
iately come to mind are ones all the above could meet but Periha~ and dozen=
s of other natural languages could not.
What does "consistent" mean for a language.=A0 The 16 rules of Esperanto ar=
e a long way from a grammar, but they are used consistently throughout (wit=
h the odd rebel here and there, but, hey!, it's a constructed language).=A0=
 There is a certain amount of L1 contamination in most Esperanto, but that =
tends to level off as indoctrination continues.=A0 The spread of Esperanto =
among the complement of educated Westerners is slow indeed, despite a centu=
ry plus of evangelism.=A0 (The same is true, of course, of Lojban and most =
other constructed languages -- mainly an eW preoccupation).
Carnap, by the time I had him for classes, was a bit more sensible (or less=
 polite).=A0 To be sure, there are any number of ways to build a logic, but=
 in the end it has to conform to the rules of truth and validity.=A0 You ca=
n build almost any sort of language and eventually work out the rules by wh=
ich it does in fact conform to this restriction (if it really is that): see=
 a great sweep of modern linguistics since about 1960.=A0 But a logical lan=
guage in the present sense is one in which that conformity is on or discern=
ably close to the surface and *that* limits your options or at least eventu=
ally forces moves along the path you have decided to pursue.

________________________________
 From: v4hn <me@v4hn.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 09:38:36AM -0700, John E Clifford wrote:
> anaphoric pronouns, reduplicated connectives, right ends of
> various constructions (to match the intentions, not just fit the rules).
> That'll do for starters and all of them about practical things.

None of these are discussed here, but I get what you mean.

> Whether cmevla are brevla is definitely not in the list;
> it is about saving a handful of lines in a grammar.

That was my point.

> Well, it depends upon what you mean by a real users group.
> I don't know what the figures are for Lojban (nor how they
> might be arrived at) but, at the moment, at least Klingon,
> Dothraki, Na'vi, and toki pona that I know of claim followings
> in the hundreds (again, I have no idea where the numbers come from).

No way, Dothraki is a fully specified and used language? %^D
Ok, sure, why not...

> As for simplicity, assuming there were some objective measure of that,
> I doubt that Lojban would do that well against, say, toki pona,
> even setting aside the problem of learning 10,000 words or so.

I was talking about full-fledged languages. :^D

> Even Esperanto is simpler -- for educated Westerners --
> than Lojban (even including vocab learning).

But less consistant to the best of my knowledge.
And not everybody is an educated Westerner.

> Don't worry about splitting the community; it never was nor ever could be=
 a unity.
> We will go on, squabbling every inch of the way and yet come up
> with a decent language at any given point and any given speaker.

Hehe, good to hear that.

> speaking as a logician, there is a right way,
> or at least several equally right ways, and as a result, a large number o=
f wrong ways.
> None of those are listed above but are high on my personal list.

Wow, I didn't think there are _still_ logicians who don't agree with Carnap=
 on that matter:

> "It is not our business to set up prohibitions, but to arrive at conventi=
ons...
> In logic there are no morals. Everyone is at liberty to build up his own =
logic,
> i.e. his own language, as he wishes. All that is required of him is that,
> if he wishes to discuss it, he must state his methods clearly, and give
> syntactical rules instead of philosophical arguments."
-- The Logical Syntax of Language, =A717 (1937)


v4hn

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


---1412092350-1913560883-1370919436=:83802
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">You asked about gaps =
and inconsistencies.<br>Your point is that this is worrying trivia.&nbsp; P=
oint taken and perpetually ignored.&nbsp; Serious problems take too much wo=
rk.<br>Yeah, Dothraki (and High Valeryan now and whatever Dave's language o=
n Defiance is) and Klingon and Na'vi are small languages so far (though the=
y all go a long way beyond the scripts -&nbsp; don't forget Hamlet in Kling=
on), but they have a number of people who are learning (and have learned) t=
hemand more join up every day.&nbsp; toki pona is pretty complete; it is ju=
st unclear (hence the interest in it) how much you can do with it.&nbsp; So=
 far, no challenges unmet -- but then, no really steep challenges offered e=
ither.&nbsp; It is not terribly clear what "full-fledged language" means; t=
he tests that immediately come to mind are ones all the above could
 meet but Periha~ and dozens of other natural languages could not.<br>What =
does "consistent" mean for a language.&nbsp; The 16 rules of Esperanto are =
a long way from a grammar, but they are used consistently throughout (with =
the odd rebel here and there, but, hey!, it's a constructed language).&nbsp=
; There is a certain amount of L1 contamination in most Esperanto, but that=
 tends to level off as indoctrination continues.&nbsp; The spread of Espera=
nto among the complement of educated Westerners is slow indeed, despite a c=
entury plus of evangelism.&nbsp; (The same is true, of course, of Lojban an=
d most other constructed languages -- mainly an eW preoccupation).<br>Carna=
p, by the time I had him for classes, was a bit more sensible (or less poli=
te).&nbsp; To be sure, there are any number of ways to build a logic, but i=
n the end it has to conform to the rules of truth and validity.&nbsp; You c=
an build almost any sort of language and eventually work out the
 rules by which it does in fact conform to this restriction (if it really i=
s that): see a great sweep of modern linguistics since about 1960.&nbsp; Bu=
t a logical language in the present sense is one in which that conformity i=
s on or discernably close to the surface and *that* limits your options or =
at least eventually forces moves along the path you have decided to pursue.=
<div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-si=
ze: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, se=
rif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Ar=
ial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> v4hn=
 &lt;me@v4hn.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b=
> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:<=
/span></b> Monday, June 10, 2013 7:16 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:=
 bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </=
font> </div>
 <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 09:38:36AM -0700, John E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; an=
aphoric pronouns, reduplicated connectives, right ends of<br>&gt; various c=
onstructions (to match the intentions, not just fit the rules).<br>&gt; Tha=
t'll do for starters and all of them about practical things.<br><br>None of=
 these are discussed here, but I get what you mean.<br><br>&gt; Whether cme=
vla are brevla is definitely not in the list;<br>&gt; it is about saving a =
handful of lines in a grammar.<br><br>That was my point.<br><br>&gt; Well, =
it depends upon what you mean by a real users group.<br>&gt; I don't know w=
hat the figures are for Lojban (nor how they<br>&gt; might be arrived at) b=
ut, at the moment, at least Klingon,<br>&gt; Dothraki, Na'vi, and toki pona=
 that I know of claim followings<br>&gt; in the hundreds (again, I have no =
idea where the numbers come from).<br><br>No way, Dothraki is a fully speci=
fied and used language? %^D<br>Ok, sure, why not...<br><br>&gt; As
 for simplicity, assuming there were some objective measure of that,<br>&gt=
; I doubt that Lojban would do that well against, say, toki pona,<br>&gt; e=
ven setting aside the problem of learning 10,000 words or so.<br><br>I was =
talking about full-fledged languages. :^D<br><br>&gt; Even Esperanto is sim=
pler -- for educated Westerners --<br>&gt; than Lojban (even including voca=
b learning).<br><br>But less consistant to the best of my knowledge.<br>And=
 not everybody is an educated Westerner.<br><br>&gt; Don't worry about spli=
tting the community; it never was nor ever could be a unity.<br>&gt; We wil=
l go on, squabbling every inch of the way and yet come up<br>&gt; with a de=
cent language at any given point and any given speaker.<br><br>Hehe, good t=
o hear that.<br><br>&gt; speaking as a logician, there is a right way,<br>&=
gt; or at least several equally right ways, and as a result, a large number=
 of wrong ways.<br>&gt; None of those are listed above but are high
 on my personal list.<br><br>Wow, I didn't think there are _still_ logician=
s who don't agree with Carnap on that matter:<br><br>&gt; "It is not our bu=
siness to set up prohibitions, but to arrive at conventions...<br>&gt; In l=
ogic there are no morals. Everyone is at liberty to build up his own logic,=
<br>&gt; i.e. his own language, as he wishes. All that is required of him i=
s that,<br>&gt; if he wishes to discuss it, he must state his methods clear=
ly, and give<br>&gt; syntactical rules instead of philosophical arguments."=
<br>-- The Logical Syntax of Language, =A717 (1937)<br><br><br>v4hn<br><br>=
<br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

---1412092350-1913560883-1370919436=:83802--