Received: from mail-gg0-f183.google.com ([209.85.161.183]:33333) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UmOtz-0006MX-A6 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:46:27 -0700 Received: by mail-gg0-f183.google.com with SMTP id j1sf847414ggn.10 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:46:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wRL1Q2Rpeci+xh5MKZgLrNhrteGOdz/+oart9UPlI98=; b=b8OhE0sM3HfxNRddgzfQxCZQvnmXQPkiqjgH3JdvHbaBl7MdfFeqlJTOquD6iJjdPS hJ7QITXOEHnK9t1wLWQizzwqQfPIv9VPdl6o6wlH7crMbwLV+j0+hSLlI0FvEwrVfiX2 gkltzDvN7KPM1fgaqL9QY0Olxj9rqTYNccdX4/kDdFeOpEQZhEARVK3WLdmHNDoI50o8 tfq6r95/5AsamiZDRhUzhUZyM7OfAybwWonAfsE77OuVb3oY8EQKxGy98ok5iWXIdKtc pTCYJn0f5diE3yXpbo6rS9CR/Uy98hLbKpbX28zUl0d17myF/KUr4tCTR2GBU6AHCH3h 9VJQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wRL1Q2Rpeci+xh5MKZgLrNhrteGOdz/+oart9UPlI98=; b=ghhCa5xeqItMEt8eXvLoQWlKdCwpALBF815P9T/inlPAUSfjhcEw5ZIndK3Q7eS7tc L814IM/310iRKXxTUn75lJ3ASrCbvnBauoh26SfYKAQozNbs735QKn59Tw4gkW1yiPTy h5jM5hAM5HaUDOS01EYxe4qblqyATN0JB6aSEjHsx6936OTGVcsMIYDO3pVrtBv7tuU8 AOctQC4INHsEtIendkWBkWPF95h0tlqgGmWznVHpQaxfLmcFvwOxyNcSEPpVHoPFI+Rs 2qbZHKJ7/jxaInXz7emb3ZIknift/DciN144LS8ep8m4IDxbpRtI12ZNCQqtFgdUxZFG NU1w== X-Received: by 10.49.24.243 with SMTP id x19mr731002qef.34.1370958376836; Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.71.107 with SMTP id t11ls1152758qeu.4.gmail; Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:46:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.0.200 with SMTP id 8mr723470qeg.38.1370958375459; Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: John E Clifford Message-Id: <65192c17-6fcc-4538-848d-f96fff37ed37@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <2dc0c809-8e2c-407a-8a8f-a0308aa60487@googlegroups.com> References: <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <1370809200.78493.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1572136.Rc9a1FkyGG@caracal> <1370832256.72062.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51B5A9D9.8030701@gmx.de> <1370870235.94786.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2dc0c809-8e2c-407a-8a8f-a0308aa60487@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_45_20675784.1370958375074" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_45_20675784.1370958375074 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:23:43 PM UTC+4, la arxokuna wrote: > > > > On Monday, June 10, 2013 5:17:15 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >> >> Well, speaking of serendipity! I made a careless error, but it turns out >> to provide your answer. I said I was dropping {la} with cmevla, but I >> meant cmene. Still, if I stick to what I *said*, the problem (the one you >> mention at least) is solved. {mi klama paris berlin} gives destination and >> origin, {mi klama la paris berlin} gives only a strange destination. >> > > i can't see internal consistency in this proposal. > Really sorry. I meant to say "I can see inconsistency". Anyway, can you elaborate your proposal a bit more? How would it look like in the formal grammar? > How would you say {mi viska la .maikl. .djakson.} ? With or without {la}? > > Can {la} be dropped only for one-cmevla names? > > > Of course, if I want to add that I took the TGV or came to that >> strange destination from Rome, I might get new problems. Back to the >> drawing board! >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* selpa'i >> *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2013 5:26 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla >> >> la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e >> > I do think this talk about a documented baseline has about worn out its >> > usefulness. >> >> Yes! Finally someone says this openly. >> >> > It started when it became clear that the grammar in CLL did >> > not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojban. But it was >> > predicated on somebody actually doing the documentation and in the >> > intervening two decades, no one has even made a pass at that. So, why >> > not go back to CLL. Say that *is* the baseline and largely wrong and >> > then start to build the new normal, incorporating suggestions as they >> > come along and get accepted, rather than waiting for the Baseline (who >> > is do a week after the Messiah and two after Elijah). >> >> I would love that. >> >> > That ids, in >> > fact, the way people have been behaving for most of Lojban's history but >> > there have been no controls on them because "it is not yet the time to >> > make changes". Too bad, the changes just get made, even if they are >> > dumb. Better to hash them out and issue decrees now then try to patch >> > things up later (much later, since after the baseline). >> >> That's kind of what I keep saying. >> >> > So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about dropping >> > {la} with cmevla). >> >> Hehe :P. You would still need to show how you would distinguish between >> {mi klama .paris. .berlin.} "I go to Paris from Berlin" and {mi klama >> .paris.berlin.} "I go to Paris-Berlin" (whatever that is). How do you >> distinguish between cmevla strings that form a single sumti together and >> cmevla strings that don't? You cannot simply remove the middle dot there, >> because *{.parisberlin.} has an illegal consonant pair. I assume you would >> use a JOI to glue them and have them be seperate otherwise? >> >> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_45_20675784.1370958375074 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:23:43 PM UTC+4, la arxokuna wrote:

On Monday, June 10, 2013 5:= 17:15 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Well, speaking of serendip= ity!  I made a careless error, but it turns out to provide your answer= .  I said I was dropping {la} with cmevla, but I meant cmene.  St= ill, if I stick to what I *said*, the problem (the one you mention at least= ) is solved.  {mi klama paris berlin} gives destination and origin, {m= i klama la paris berlin} gives only a strange destination.

i can't see internal consistency i= n this proposal.

Really sorry. I mean= t to say "I can see inconsistency".

Anyway, can yo= u elaborate  your proposal a bit more? How would it look like in the f= ormal grammar?


How would you say {mi viska la .maikl. .djakson.}= ? With or without {la}?

Can {la} be dropped only = for one-cmevla names?


  Of course,  if I want to add that I took the TGV  or came= to that strange destination from Rome, I might get new problems.  Bac= k to the drawing board!

From: selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de>=
To: loj...@googlegro= ups.com
Sent: Monda= y, June 10, 2013 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=
la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> I do think this talk about a documented ba= seline has about worn out its
> usefulness.

Yes! Finally someo= ne says this openly.

> It started when it became clear that the g= rammar in CLL did
> not correspond to what anybody was doing in Lojba= n.  But it was
> predicated on somebody actually doing the docum= entation and in the
> intervening two decades, no one has even made a= pass at that.  So, why
> not go back to CLL.  Say that *is= * the baseline and largely wrong and
> then start to build the new no= rmal, incorporating suggestions as they
> come along and get accepted= , rather than waiting for the Baseline (who
> is do a week after the = Messiah and two after Elijah).

I would love that.

> That i= ds, in
> fact, the way people have been behaving for most of Lojban's= history but
> there have been no controls on them because "it is not yet the time to
> make changes".  Too bad, the changes j= ust get made, even if they are
> dumb.  Better to hash them out = and issue decrees now then try to patch
> things up later (much later= , since after the baseline).

That's kind of what I keep saying.
<= br>> So, for example, I use dotside prime. (and am thinking about droppi= ng
> {la} with cmevla).

Hehe :P. You would still need to show = how you would distinguish between {mi klama .paris. .berlin.} "I go to Pari= s from Berlin" and {mi klama .paris.berlin.} "I go to Paris-Berlin" (whatev= er that is). How do you distinguish between cmevla strings that form a sing= le sumti together and cmevla strings that don't? You cannot simply remove t= he middle dot there, because *{.parisberlin.} has an illegal consonant pair= . I assume you would use a JOI to glue them and have them be seperate other= wise?

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this g= roup, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at = http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more option= s, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.




=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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