Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.93 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.93;
References: <CAHxnAmJvBZ1_4S1OF45n3dd5g2iQmFEGiQbsyBTN6PwybsNkrA@mail.gmail.com> <51A379EF.3020803@gmx.de> <CAHxnAm+HZGvy=Ck9nvogsR_uHL=+BYPho6vDKe8WGp-H4xKmEA@mail.gmail.com> <51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org> <CAMKwHj3gpou-t-6wPOLP7TCXdGhVGU2z+H-z4g=yGJK8Yg2gEg@mail.gmail.com> <51A8680E.7040103@lojban.org> <CAMKwHj3+aWwW0E3QP271aRNP8oKMy9hNDipjypX6hhJkauM+_A@mail.gmail.com> <51A8F326.2020901@lojban.org> <51A8F89D.2040408@gmx.de> <51B00097.8080004@lojban.org> <51B06D24.6020102@gmx.de> <51B46762.8080509@lojban.org> <1370781558.18791.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2evm9SezfsaxmFa5HiG0B4HYmbkcMjuv4FjqCa4Us7FVw@mail.gmail.com> <51B4BA33.1030507@lojban.org> <CAO7tK2dOSinU1Vb3+gGRWkDmK8aXBeqNrk4NqXCvwUZXO_n-bw@mail.gmail.com> <51B4EEFA.9060009@lojban.org> <CAO7tK2f=NcBW91=gt5f0FVQjvYcZ-RiCwdCo_Cog2evZPD0uqw@mail.gmail.com> <51B6633B.6080502@lojban.org> <1370918025.57449.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <CAMKwHj3s1Vev1ryLkPAEhM5uTHEGWyXYjU8-B6=Mm7h1u88HQg@mail.gmail.com> <CAHxnAm+V2fuQAFZf0T_TihLqr3bOv7SNU6FWCvPVvbxP93zWiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1370968014.69996.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 09:26:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAHxnAm+V2fuQAFZf0T_TihLqr3bOv7SNU6FWCvPVvbxP93zWiQ@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-517048273-1370968014=:69996"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--1789658926-517048273-1370968014=:69996
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As you imply, {selma'o} ({se cmavo}, after all, although the online diction=
ary didn't turn it up) is only for cmavo, which is the way CLL uses it in t=
he grammar.=A0 {cmene} on the other hand is all over the place, but strictl=
y applies only to string of cmevla (as we would now say) in the grammar.=A0=
 It appears that, in trying to avoid murdering English, ala JCB, for jargon=
, we have ended up murdering Lojban itself.=A0 Personally, I prefer English=
, even twisted, to languages which we don't really understand to begin with=
.


________________________________
 From: Betsemes <betsemes@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

According to jbovlaste http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmene
cmene:
definition=A0=A0=A0 : x1 (quoted word(s)) is a/the name/title/tag of x2
to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person).
notes: Also: x2 is called x1 by x3 (=3D selcme for reordered places).
See also cmavo list me'e, gismu, tcita, valsi, judri.
gloss words: name ; reference word
title ; name
created by=A0=A0=A0 officialdata
vote information=A0=A0=A0 100002
time=A0=A0=A0 Tue Apr 20 19:21:08 2010

To me it means "name". So {cmevla} is the {valsi klesi} or "selma'o"
(if we really can count such words as {cmavo}).

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I'm pretty sure CMENE is a klesi, and not a selma'o.
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 8:33 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Well, CLL does not list a selma'o CMENE in the list of all the selma'o. =
It
>> does use selma'o style reference ("CMENE") in two rules, one of them mer=
ely
>> the phonological definition of what are now called cmevla, the other
>> defining the multi-cmevla cmene, which are called cmene=A0 and are clear=
ly not
>> in CMENE.=A0 None of the other things that are names, e.g., {la tsani} a=
re
>> called cmene either and even regular cmevla and cmevla strings are calle=
d
>> names throughout most of the text (other than the section on the
>> phonological definition).=A0 So, nobody is really sticking to CLL too cl=
osely.
>> A nomenclature conference might come in handy.=A0 Personally, I like "na=
mes".

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--1789658926-517048273-1370968014=:69996
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">As you imply, {selma'=
o} ({se cmavo}, after all, although the online dictionary didn't turn it up=
) is only for cmavo, which is the way CLL uses it in the grammar.&nbsp; {cm=
ene} on the other hand is all over the place, but strictly applies only to =
string of cmevla (as we would now say) in the grammar.&nbsp; It appears tha=
t, in trying to avoid murdering English, ala JCB, for jargon, we have ended=
 up murdering Lojban itself.&nbsp; Personally, I prefer English, even twist=
ed, to languages which we don't really understand to begin with.<br><div><s=
pan><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new =
roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family=
: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"l=
tr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span
 style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Betsemes &lt;betsemes@gmail.c=
om&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@goog=
legroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tu=
esday, June 11, 2013 8:37 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subj=
ect:</span></b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div>=
 <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
According to jbovlaste http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmene<br>cmene:<br>=
definition&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : x1 (quoted word(s)) is a/the name/title/tag =
of x2<br>to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person).<br>notes: Also: x2 is call=
ed x1 by x3 (=3D selcme for reordered places).<br>See also cmavo list me'e,=
 gismu, tcita, valsi, judri.<br>gloss words: name ; reference word<br>title=
 ; name<br>created by&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; officialdata<br>vote information&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 100002<br>time&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tue Apr 20 19:21:08 2010<b=
r><br>To me it means "name". So {cmevla} is the {valsi klesi} or "selma'o"<=
br>(if we really can count such words as {cmavo}).<br><br>On Mon, Jun 10, 2=
013 at 10:56 PM, Jonathan Jones &lt;<a ymailto=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com"=
 href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;=
 Yeah, I'm pretty sure CMENE is a klesi, and not a selma'o.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
 On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 8:33 PM, John E Clifford &lt;<a
 ymailto=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.co=
m">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Well=
, CLL does not list a selma'o CMENE in the list of all the selma'o. It<br>&=
gt;&gt; does use selma'o style reference ("CMENE") in two rules, one of the=
m merely<br>&gt;&gt; the phonological definition of what are now called cme=
vla, the other<br>&gt;&gt; defining the multi-cmevla cmene, which are calle=
d cmene&nbsp; and are clearly not<br>&gt;&gt; in CMENE.&nbsp; None of the o=
ther things that are names, e.g., {la tsani} are<br>&gt;&gt; called cmene e=
ither and even regular cmevla and cmevla strings are called<br>&gt;&gt; nam=
es throughout most of the text (other than the section on the<br>&gt;&gt; p=
honological definition).&nbsp; So, nobody is really sticking to CLL too clo=
sely.<br>&gt;&gt; A nomenclature conference might come in handy.&nbsp; Pers=
onally, I like "names".<br><br>-- <br>You received this message because
 you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe =
from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+=
<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscri=
be@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this g=
roup, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"m=
ailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this g=
roup at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options,=
 visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> =
</div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--1789658926-517048273-1370968014=:69996--