Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c02::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c02::229;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <51B47305.4020704@gmx.de>
References: <CAHxnAmJvBZ1_4S1OF45n3dd5g2iQmFEGiQbsyBTN6PwybsNkrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<51A379EF.3020803@gmx.de>
	<CAHxnAm+HZGvy=Ck9nvogsR_uHL=+BYPho6vDKe8WGp-H4xKmEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<51A6685C.3010505@lojban.org>
	<CAMKwHj3gpou-t-6wPOLP7TCXdGhVGU2z+H-z4g=yGJK8Yg2gEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<51A8680E.7040103@lojban.org>
	<CAMKwHj3+aWwW0E3QP271aRNP8oKMy9hNDipjypX6hhJkauM+_A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51A8F326.2020901@lojban.org>
	<51A8F89D.2040408@gmx.de>
	<51B00097.8080004@lojban.org>
	<51B06D24.6020102@gmx.de>
	<51B46762.8080509@lojban.org>
	<51B47305.4020704@gmx.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 10:52:30 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQrmYywT88SCb45H0t0jWTxhjOPMnP2+mQkf9m-_QAOAA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0115efcc98b94404df0a47fd
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--089e0115efcc98b94404df0a47fd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

  Okay, having finally caught up to this monster thread (but not yet the
other one split from here), I shall proffer my observations/preferences.

1)  Let me state at the outset I am not in favor of the Merge.  I like the
status quo,  except that I agree that COI la BRIVLA should be the preferred
usage when referring to someone named BRIVLA, rather than an actual
instance of the BRIVLA.

2) I think Bob, on the other hand, is way too draconian in his
pronouncements.  la broda is fully a moniker as la brodan. is, and has the
addition of having actual meaning attached.  I expect that he is too
culturally American in this regard, and just thinks of all names as simply
a string of phonemes,since we imported them from many many cultures.  It's
unlikely that an American who names their kid even things like Daisy, Rose,
or Pearl is really reflecting about the meanings of the names.  However
that's not always true -- Gwyneth Paltrow's daughter Apple, for example.
 My fourth son, Yehuda Chaim Mendel, has  a first name that we particularly
chose for its meaning -- thankfulness, unlike his middle names, which while
they have meanings, were chosen for other reasons.  And of course, many
other cultures besides the Native Americans use meaningful names.  Besides
Hebrew, Chinese comes to mind.  (btw, the only US President that was given
the oath of office by his nickname was Jimmy Carter).  There is no reason
to denigrate brivla names.

         --gejyspa


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:20 AM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
>
>> Those exceptions are in fact significant - they are examples of the
>>
>> brivla (or whatever word) being taken as a string of symbols/sounds that
>> exists on it own regardless of which word or kind of word that it is. It
>> would seem that you want names to be another example of a string of
>> symbols taken as such a standalone language unit.
>>
>
> Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying they are. I thought I had made that
> clear. A name is a word (or multiple words) used to refer to some entity,
> irrespective of what that word might mean.
>
>
>  But that isn't the case for Lojban.
>>
>
> You seem to be alone in thinking that (see other people's responses).
>
> As you say, {zo tsani} is just the "standalone language unit" "tsani", the
> word itself, without any hidden places. But the accepted definition of {la}
> is:
>
> la broda == lo selcme be zo broda
>
> So you must have a different definition of {la} than everyone else.
>
>
>  I am saying that as far as Lojban is concerned "{la tsani} and {la tsani
>> be zo'e}" are linguistically equivalent, and there is no way to say "la
>> tsani" such that it DOESN'T include a possible value in the unspecified
>> places; they are there and they are "zo'e", if nothing else.
>>
>
> I understand your position. However, I doubt la tsani would agree that his
> name is "tsani be zo'e". It's not the same name as it is a different string
> of sounds.
>
>
>  And dotside or no dotside, I will never accept someone's choice of name
>> to be "la" %^)
>>
>
> That's your private business, but don't expect everyone else to follow
> your personal preference here. I also don't see how dotside is relevant to
> this.
>
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en>
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> .
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--089e0115efcc98b94404df0a47fd
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">=A0 Okay, having finally caught up to this monster thread =
(but not yet the other one split from here), I shall proffer my observation=
s/preferences.<div><br></div><div style>1) =A0Let me state at the outset I =
am not in favor of the Merge. =A0I like the status quo, =A0except that I ag=
ree that COI la BRIVLA should be the preferred usage when referring to some=
one named BRIVLA, rather than an actual instance of the BRIVLA.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>2) I think Bob, on the other hand, is way t=
oo draconian in his pronouncements. =A0la broda is fully a moniker as la br=
odan. is, and has the addition of having actual meaning attached. =A0I expe=
ct that he is too culturally American in this regard, and just thinks of al=
l names as simply a string of phonemes,since we imported them from many man=
y cultures. =A0It&#39;s unlikely that an American who names their kid even =
things like Daisy, Rose, or Pearl is really reflecting about the meanings o=
f the names. =A0However that&#39;s not always true -- Gwyneth Paltrow&#39;s=
 daughter Apple, for example. =A0My fourth son, Yehuda Chaim Mendel, has =
=A0a first name that we particularly chose for its meaning -- thankfulness,=
 unlike his middle names, which while they have meanings, were chosen for o=
ther reasons. =A0And of course, many other cultures besides the Native Amer=
icans use meaningful names. =A0Besides Hebrew, Chinese comes to mind. =A0(b=
tw, the only US President that was given the oath of office by his nickname=
 was Jimmy Carter). =A0There is no reason to denigrate brivla names.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa</div><div styl=
e><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:20 AM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">la .lojbab. cu cusku di=
9;e<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Those exceptions are in fact significant - they are examples of the<div cla=
ss=3D"im"><br>
brivla (or whatever word) being taken as a string of symbols/sounds that<br=
>
exists on it own regardless of which word or kind of word that it is. It<br=
>
would seem that you want names to be another example of a string of<br>
symbols taken as such a standalone language unit.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Yes, that&#39;s exactly what I&#39;m saying they are. I thought I had made =
that clear. A name is a word (or multiple words) used to refer to some enti=
ty, irrespective of what that word might mean.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
But that isn&#39;t the case for Lojban.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
You seem to be alone in thinking that (see other people&#39;s responses).<b=
r>
<br>
As you say, {zo tsani} is just the &quot;standalone language unit&quot; &qu=
ot;tsani&quot;, the word itself, without any hidden places. But the accepte=
d definition of {la} is:<br>
<br>
la broda =3D=3D lo selcme be zo broda<br>
<br>
So you must have a different definition of {la} than everyone else.<div cla=
ss=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I am saying that as far as Lojban is concerned &quot;{la tsani} and {la tsa=
ni<br>
be zo&#39;e}&quot; are linguistically equivalent, and there is no way to sa=
y &quot;la<br>
tsani&quot; such that it DOESN&#39;T include a possible value in the unspec=
ified<br>
places; they are there and they are &quot;zo&#39;e&quot;, if nothing else.<=
br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I understand your position. However, I doubt la tsani would agree that his =
name is &quot;tsani be zo&#39;e&quot;. It&#39;s not the same name as it is =
a different string of sounds.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
And dotside or no dotside, I will never accept someone&#39;s choice of name=
<br>
to be &quot;la&quot; %^)<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
That&#39;s your private business, but don&#39;t expect everyone else to fol=
low your personal preference here. I also don&#39;t see how dotside is rele=
vant to this.<div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@<u></u>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/<u></u>group/lojban?hl=3Den</=
a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/<u></u>groups/opt_out</a>.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--089e0115efcc98b94404df0a47fd--