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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:42:33 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkTq4PQYfyOi69O-Vs9HrRm_ToJHVz+vW2ys73KOxdWhGA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Number of unique symbols needed to write lojban
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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The comma does indeed alter pronunciation of cmevla.    lo,is is not the
same as lois  (CLL 3.3.3)
                     --gejyspa


On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9 June 2013 06:56, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:36:10 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:
>>>
>>> coi
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 08, 2013 at 08:27:42PM -0700, la arxokuna wrote:
>>> > Oh, i was inprecise a bit.
>>> > 1. dot and apostrophe are letters in lojban so we have 25 lowercase
>>> letters.
>>> > 2. There is a new trend to use capital letters instead of names of
>>> letters
>>> > (A,B instead of .abu, by.). So we have 23 capital letters.
>>>
>>> There is such a trend? Well, at least now there is...
>>> Still capitals have to be included anyway.
>>>
>>> > 3. space
>>>
>>> What do you need the space for?
>>>
>>
>> ????
>>
>> To input normal text in lojban of course. It's standard lojban. And space
>> is a symbol.
>>
>>
>>
> If stress is always indicated, be it by accented characters or capital
> letters, then the space character is unnecessary, but aids in readability.
> The comma is the same: if one understands Lojban morphology, then the comma
> is unnecessary, as it does not alter the pronunciation of a word, and two
> words differing only in a comma are the same word.
>
> That being said, the absolute minimal set of characters needed to write
> Lojban using the Latin alphabet are the lowercase letters a to z, minus h,
> q, and w. The apostrophe and the dot are also needed. In case of atypical
> stress patterns (which only occur in cmevla) five accented characters are
> also needed (perhaps six, as I can't recall if one is allowed to stress ybu
> in cmevla). However, I would not consider each individual accented
> character to be a separate character, as the sound is the same modulo the
> stress difference.
>
> Unless we always indicate stress, the space is needed.
>
> That's 25 letters + one symbol if we choose to not always indicate the
> stress, not counting the accented vowels as characters in their own right
> (which, IMO, they are not.)
>
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
> --
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>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">The comma does indeed alter pronunciation of cmevla. =A0 =
=A0lo,is is not the same as lois =A0(CLL 3.3.3)<div style>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa</div><div style><br></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"im">On 9 June 2013 06:56, la arxokuna <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br><br>On Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:36:10=
 PM UTC+4, v4hn wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;m=
argin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


coi
<br>
<br>On Sat, Jun 08, 2013 at 08:27:42PM -0700, la arxokuna wrote:
<br>&gt; Oh, i was inprecise a bit.
<br>&gt; 1. dot and apostrophe are letters in lojban so we have 25 lowercas=
e letters.
<br>&gt; 2. There is a new trend to use capital letters instead of names of=
 letters=20
<br>&gt; (A,B instead of .abu, by.). So we have 23 capital letters.
<br>
<br>There is such a trend? Well, at least now there is...
<br>Still capitals have to be included anyway.
<br>
<br>&gt; 3. space
<br>
<br>What do you need the space for?
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>????</div><div><br></div><div>To=
 input normal text in lojban of course. It&#39;s standard lojban. And space=
 is a symbol.</div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>If stress is always indicated,=
 be it by accented characters or capital letters, then the space character =
is unnecessary, but aids in readability. The comma is the same: if one unde=
rstands Lojban morphology, then the comma is unnecessary, as it does not al=
ter the pronunciation of a word, and two words differing only in a comma ar=
e the same word.</div>


<div><br></div><div>That being said, the absolute minimal set of characters=
 needed to write Lojban using the Latin alphabet are the lowercase letters =
a to z, minus h, q, and w. The apostrophe and the dot are also needed. In c=
ase of atypical stress patterns (which only occur in cmevla) five accented =
characters are also needed (perhaps six, as I can&#39;t recall if one is al=
lowed to stress ybu in cmevla). However, I would not consider each individu=
al accented character to be a separate character, as the sound is the same =
modulo the stress difference.</div>


<div><br></div><div>Unless we always indicate stress, the space is needed.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s 25 letters + one symbol if we choose to=
 not always indicate the stress, not counting the accented vowels as charac=
ters in their own right (which, IMO, they are not.)</div>


<div><br></div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div></div></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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=A0<br>
=A0<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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