Received: from mail-ye0-f191.google.com ([209.85.213.191]:50490) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UnVxN-0002Az-JI for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:30:31 -0700 Received: by mail-ye0-f191.google.com with SMTP id g12sf183193yee.8 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:30:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=B+wQ/fH5RHXpxhozvERcKh/whr4iuBgx+inX1YX6SAE=; b=lHLMPIsAq5ft6WvRjnNthD7/RI6AovZ44bnAvGjaqdqe0yxFjxu/Cs67jq3RR1qYaL WZIdzAwAIZJuzB+GFZEPz9HvlCe6Wf0YBOL5xd2NMyNs+EPp+1g/3liULzLosIxLsISd vP+BVl7Xd1mo2czTr+A7nMYWSoNWg+dmSiZjmBcEClYnEIhuD/9ZW7AN/TCWYGeUgWUj eNbnB9f37E70bIZ82AGIFvh0u/c5kk84XeUizjtnMsxrGyhZR2J30/7RwCm0fDAEv27D xVnfFadcaxfy/3qvhVIRhNMjhvRMJS4Icw5wh2ja1TjlRakkAIkjkUmgWcJIWhhuulmA iiWw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=B+wQ/fH5RHXpxhozvERcKh/whr4iuBgx+inX1YX6SAE=; b=dimYWkr6p4SDakgQ+Zft4G3MZdAm+kp9uBtQwO5WoIsWrXz/I+8xO+aVE5ZklZGoIV mj1zvAsg32eqi2zI1tiHvfEBULkTEg26MXHedgmCTdObWf42bWfSoCk0DLFt63RSj5ry aWSAVOkxi0zOLMrA8sIn2JwatqlME8bZOa/E9cB6i5TOrNQibMMjwuDZ28GicNfugFjU pFNEDMcSEJbGmkdGWfwJo1At4Bl+szDFBjEHmu6saDT1a+brBCxfS3y9wi9XUPV1+FDs OlS7c3/wrMdl28HuHOrBGFopfM4bDT4yftlp4wn0PHmBaqKeaDNzJRB+9fbX4i0p3uZL aObQ== X-Received: by 10.49.35.133 with SMTP id h5mr77490qej.20.1371223823503; Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.71.107 with SMTP id t11ls219836qeu.4.gmail; Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.101.78 with SMTP id fe14mr80293qeb.13.1371223823001; Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:30:22 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <0457f359-c515-465c-8e11-7e12f1d9e6bb@googlegroups.com> <509827ED.6040603@gmail.com> <50983198.9070305@gmx.de> <509837C3.5030207@gmx.de> <50984A9B.1010806@gmx.de> <509EDCFC.8070504@gmx.de> <509EF14D.8000403@gmx.de> <7c3c3bcb-4a42-48a8-84e5-4b57acdab273@googlegroups.com> <5c9164ea-8238-4d3b-a241-496d818bd0e7@googlegroups.com> <580da3af-0360-439e-856e-13a0322f110e@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating "as" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_84_9377996.1371223822418" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_84_9377996.1371223822418 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, June 14, 2013 6:41:37 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: > > Ummm.. no it wasn't... you said "But in this case we should solve the > same problem for conjunctions. > What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and > another one being a cat?" > > Unless I'm missing something... but in any case, why do "we have to mirror > conjunctions (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo"? I say to you "na'i" > There was a suggestion to invent a new NOI-cmavo that would distribute over properties of the same object. Whereas {poi} under this proposal would distribute over individuals. --geyspa > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:32 AM, la arxokuna > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Friday, June 14, 2013 5:04:59 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: >> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:24 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> On Friday, June 14, 2013 3:56:38 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects. It's a selbri. "lo >>>>> xekri je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a description of all >>>>> objects that are both black and cats. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Okay. >>>> 1. How would you describe one object that is black and white but at >>>> different time? >>>> 2. How would you describe two objects, one black and another one white? >>>> >>>> Well, in the first case, I'd probably make that explicit with >>> relative phrases or tanru, but since we are dealing with the question of >>> conjunctions.... >>> That's what JOI are for. >>> First the might use lo xekri ju'e blabi (jo'u might work as well, >>> but might imply either an always white or always black thing) >>> For the second, the obvious choice lo xekri je lo blabi. >>> >> >> I'm not that sure about {ju'e} but anyway the question was about NOI. >> If {poi} now separates individuals than we have to mirror conjunctions >> (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo. >> I don't welcome ad hoc decisions in lojban. >> >> --gejyspa >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_84_9377996.1371223822418 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, June 14, 2013 6:41:37 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
  Ummm.. no it was= n't... you said "But in this case we should solve the same problem for = conjunctions.
What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and anoth= er one being a cat?"

  Unless I'm missing something... but in any case, why do "we have to&= nbsp;mirror conjunctions (ju'e, je) and= NOI-cmavo"?  I say to you "na'i"
=
There was a suggestion to invent a new NOI-cmavo that would = distribute over properties of the same object.  Whereas {poi} under th= is proposal would distribute over individuals.

 --geyspa



On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:32 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Friday, June 14, 2013 5:04:59 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
=

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:24 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2013 3:56:38 PM UTC= +4, gejyspa wrote:
"xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects.  It's = a selbri.  "lo xekri je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a des= cription of  all objects that are both black and cats.

Okay. 
1. How would y= ou describe one object that is black and white but at different time?
=
2. How would you describe two objects, one black and another one white= ?

     Well, in = the first case, I'd probably make that explicit with relative phrases or ta= nru, but since we are dealing with the question of conjunctions....
    That's what JOI are for.
    First t= he might use lo xekri ju'e blabi (jo'u might work as well, but might imply = either an  always white or  always black thing) 
     For the second, the obvious choice lo xekri je lo = blabi. 

I'm no= t that sure about {ju'e}  but anyway the question was about NOI.
=
If {poi} now separates individuals than we have to mirror conjunctions= (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo.
I don't welcome ad hoc decisions in lojban.

 --gejyspa

--
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To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
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