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[66.94.236.31]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e3si76174igy.0.2013.06.14.09.55.14 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.31 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.31; Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jun 2013 16:55:13 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.122] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jun 2013 16:55:13 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1027.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jun 2013 16:55:13 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 609272.35632.bm@omp1027.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 56601 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Jun 2013 16:55:13 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: zfuGkRcVM1k.EhcUAGXk8jwFfzv2Gi6D0JLA93N6wbQhR0S MEV8pAbgaxXtYOSkc9L9Z6kSsSlxwtq4jrpdeVUXFu.gPmlRNFcwkLzusFa4 3VcOl0MRRTM5xyHmEeL7RdwyBM_.Pld.RImQW.pzbVk.Hga9OGZ8RAp7XwJb UEmtQ9DtcBDLk8ivK2gMX2YRFNE88EcM_Ip6vmHzpUxWs3WUwPfOFpZy1kUj evA0aQMC.Lo0psae0Yoy.BJgcsvHWDZeaqnt02S7YU7nLaiwzZAMTU_qV4a2 vQD2ZDBYeei3ODYL_JM1aNMR._Y2nPITQLhscYv_Sds21bGOmN.Yn9wcOMmb uK6nBC8QPq8JcAZyeUWGEZZweI8kgf0PFpmYoS.4rjg7WZDO6lfAgSlQZfpC 6ksv9n8RwCUhV61tO2vKkrHqyajPRiSV1DJOgNlOWPQ5C6zSbkyLKz.Ks4R. 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Admiottedly, some of the things that logiciqans have done to tr= y to deal with string lisk "black cat" or "small galaxy" do lend themselves= to this sort of analysis, but Lojban is supposed not to have that sort of = problem. ________________________________ From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating "as" =20 On Friday, June 14, 2013 6:41:37 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: =A0 Ummm.. no it wasn't... you said "But in this case we should solve the s= ame problem for conjunctions. >What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and anot= her one being a cat?" > > >=A0 Unless I'm missing something... but in any case, why do "we have to=A0= mirror conjunctions (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo"? =A0I say to you "na'i" There was a suggestion to invent a new NOI-cmavo that would distribute over= properties of the same object. =A0Whereas {poi} under this proposal would = distribute over individuals. =A0--geyspa > > > > > >On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:32 AM, la arxokuna wrot= e: > > >> >>On Friday, June 14, 2013 5:04:59 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: >> >>> >>>On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:24 AM, la arxokuna wro= te: >>> >>>On Friday, June 14, 2013 3:56:38 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: >>>>"xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects. =A0It's a selbri. =A0"lo= xekri je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a description of =A0all = objects that are both black and cats. >>>> >>>> >>>>Okay.=A0 >>>>1. How would you describe one object that is black and white but at dif= ferent time? >>>>2. How would you describe two objects, one black and another one white? >>>> >>>>=A0 =A0 =A0Well, in the first case, I'd probably make that explicit wit= h relative phrases or tanru, but since we are dealing with the question of = conjunctions.... >>>=A0 =A0 That's what JOI are for. >>>=A0 =A0 First the might use lo xekri ju'e blabi (jo'u might work as well= , but might imply either an =A0always white or =A0always black thing)=A0 >>>=A0 =A0 =A0For the second, the obvious choice lo xekri je lo blabi.=A0 >> >> >>I'm not that sure about {ju'e} =A0but anyway the question was about NOI. >>If {poi} now separates individuals than we have to mirror conjunctions (j= u'e, je) and NOI-cmavo. >>I don't welcome ad hoc decisions in lojban. >> >> >>=A0--gejyspa >>> >>> >> --=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+un...@ googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/ groups/opt_out. >>=A0 >>=A0 >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ---1412092350-1669530715-1371228912=:38146 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Are we starting up Ku= ng Sun-Lung again: a black cat is not a cat, neither is it black? Admiotted= ly, some of the things that logiciqans have done to try to deal with string= lisk "black cat" or "small galaxy" do lend themselves to this sort of anal= ysis, but Lojban is supposed not to have that sort of problem.


From: la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&= gt;
To: lojban@googleg= roups.com
Sent: Frida= y, June 14, 2013 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating "as"



On Friday, June 14, 2013 6:41:37 PM UTC+4,= gejyspa wrote:
  Ummm.. no it wasn't... you said "But in this case we= should solve the same problem for conjunctions.
What is {xekri je mlatu}? One black cat or two objects, one black and anoth= er one being a cat?"

  Unless I'm missing something... but in any case, why do "we have to&= nbsp;mirror conjunctions (ju'e, je) an= d NOI-cmavo"?  I say to you "na'i"

There was a suggestion to invent a new NOI-cmavo that would= distribute over properties of the same object.  Whereas {poi} under t= his proposal would distribute over individuals.

 --geyspa



On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:32 AM, la= arxokuna <gleki.is...@g= mail.com> wrote:


On Friday, June 14, 2013 5:04:59 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
=
=
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:24 AM, la = arxokuna <gleki.is...@gm= ail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2013 3= :56:38 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
"xekri je mlatu" is not any amount of objects.  It's = a selbri.  "lo xekri je mlatu" is an object. "xekri je mlatu" is a des= cription of  all objects that are both black and cats.

Okay. 
1. How would y= ou describe one object that is black and white but at different time?
=
2. How would you describe two objects, one black and another one white= ?

    &n= bsp;Well, in the first case, I'd probably make that explicit with relative = phrases or tanru, but since we are dealing with the question of conjunction= s....
    That's what JOI are for.
    First t= he might use lo xekri ju'e blabi (jo'u might work as well, but might imply = either an  always white or  always black thing) 
     For the second, the obvious choice lo xekri je lo = blabi. 

I'm no= t that sure about {ju'e}  but anyway the question was about NOI.
=
If {poi} now separates individuals than we have to mirror conjunctions= (ju'e, je) and NOI-cmavo.
I don't welcome ad hoc decisions in lojban.

 = --gejyspa

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