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From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 21:07:14 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] A request on zompist bboard
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I copied your response in reply


On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <
felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not registered there, so I can only post here:
>
>
> Hi!
>
> When you compare two languages, you will usually find out that one
> makes some fine semantic distinctions that the other doesn't. So, I
> don't think that is a particular characteristic of Lojban.
>
> Its unambiguous syntax is, for me, its most remarkable feature. I
> liked the suggestion of contrasting it with examples of ambiguity in
> English. So, here is one inspired in a xkcd comic
> (http://xkcd.com/1087/):
>
> "The pig is saved from being slaughtered by an intelligent spider."
>
> Cutting it short, the related Lojban vocabulary is as follows:
>   {lo xarju}: "The pig"
>   {lo mencre jukni}: "The intelligent spider"
>   {selcatryfanta}: "x1 prevents x2 from being killed by x3 with
> killing method x4"
>
> To get the original ordering of the passive "is saved from", we can
> add the operator {se}, which swaps x1 and x2, giving:
>   {se selcatryfanta}: "x1 is prevented by x2 from being killed by x3
> with killing method x4"
>
> The intended meaning of the sentence (in the children's book) would
> then be rendered as
>   {lo xarju cu se selcatryfanta lo mencre jukni}
>   (The pig (is saved from being slaughtered) by an intelligent spider)
>
> while the alternative interpretation would be
>   {lo xarju cu se selcatryfanta fi lo mencre jukni}
>   (The pig is saved from (being slaughtered by an intelligent spider))
>
> It gets really easy to the audience if you use a colour for the
> arguments ({lo xarju} and {lo mencre jukni}) and another one for the
> main relation ({se selcatryfanta}), and label the arguments with "x1",
> "x2" and "x3".
>
> The {fi} tag (from the fa-fe-fi-fo-fu series) unambiguosly places {lo
> mencre jukni} at position x3, where otherwise it corresponds to
> position x2. On the other hand, the thematic preposition "by" is
> ambiguous as to whether it refers to the saver or the killer.
>
> {cu} just separates the first argument from the predicate.
>
> Depending on your time and audience interest, you can go further to
> explain that:
>   1. everything is based on properties and relations, so
>        {xarju}: "x1 is a pig of species x2"
>        {jukni}: "x1 is a spider of species x2"
>        {mencre}: "x1 is intelligent by standard x2"
>    2. {mencre} and {selcatryfanta} are just compounds from the basic word=
s
>        {menli}: "x1 is a mind of x2"
>        {certu}: "x1 is skilled at x2 by standard x3"
>        {catra}: "x1 kills x2 by method x3"
>        {fanta}: "x1 prevents x2 from happening"
>
> You can also talk briefly about attitudinals and evidentials, which are
> amusing.
>
> Some details, just for reference:
>   1. More straightforward expressions of each meaning are
>       {lo mencre jukni cu fanta lo du'u lo xarju cu se catra}
>       "The intelligent spider prevents that the pig be killed"
>       {fanta lo du'u lo mencre jukni cu catra lo xarju}
>       "Something prevents that the intelligent spider kill the pig"
>   2. Some (maybe most, I don't know) lojbanists would insist that, in
> the case where the spider saves the pig, it is not really the
> arthropode who prevents the slaughter, but some action by it taken.
> This implicit abstraction would be marked with a {tu'a} prefixing the
> description, so,
>       {lo xarju cu se selcatryfanta tu'a lo mencre jukni}
>   3. {mencre} is a common word, defined in the dictionary.
> {selcatryfanta}, on the other hand, was just made up. However, it
> follows a very regular pattern, which assures me that any competent
> lojbanist should have no problem understanding it. We call this
> /jvajvo/, from {javni}, "rule", and {lujvo}, "compound".
>
>
> Hoping to have helped!
>
> mi'e .filipos.
>
>
> On 10 June 2013 02:36, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
> > http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=3D4&t=3D41887
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > I request some help from any Lojbanists who may see this
> >
> > I am making a presentation on conlangs, and I make a passing reference =
to
> > Lojban. I mention that is an engineered/logical language, but I also
> want to
> > show the people what is this all about.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > ----
> > will somebody help 'em?
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps
> > "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send =
an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I copied your response in reply<br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 6:32 P=
M, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:felipeg=
.assis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">felipeg.assis@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I am not registered there, so I can only pos=
t here:<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi!<br>
<br>
When you compare two languages, you will usually find out that one<br>
makes some fine semantic distinctions that the other doesn&#39;t. So, I<br>
don&#39;t think that is a particular characteristic of Lojban.<br>
<br>
Its unambiguous syntax is, for me, its most remarkable feature. I<br>
liked the suggestion of contrasting it with examples of ambiguity in<br>
English. So, here is one inspired in a xkcd comic<br>
(<a href=3D"http://xkcd.com/1087/" target=3D"_blank">http://xkcd.com/1087/<=
/a>):<br>
<br>
&quot;The pig is saved from being slaughtered by an intelligent spider.&quo=
t;<br>
<br>
Cutting it short, the related Lojban vocabulary is as follows:<br>
=A0 {lo xarju}: &quot;The pig&quot;<br>
=A0 {lo mencre jukni}: &quot;The intelligent spider&quot;<br>
=A0 {selcatryfanta}: &quot;x1 prevents x2 from being killed by x3 with<br>
killing method x4&quot;<br>
<br>
To get the original ordering of the passive &quot;is saved from&quot;, we c=
an<br>
add the operator {se}, which swaps x1 and x2, giving:<br>
=A0 {se selcatryfanta}: &quot;x1 is prevented by x2 from being killed by x3=
<br>
with killing method x4&quot;<br>
<br>
The intended meaning of the sentence (in the children&#39;s book) would<br>
then be rendered as<br>
=A0 {lo xarju cu se selcatryfanta lo mencre jukni}<br>
=A0 (The pig (is saved from being slaughtered) by an intelligent spider)<br=
>
<br>
while the alternative interpretation would be<br>
=A0 {lo xarju cu se selcatryfanta fi lo mencre jukni}<br>
=A0 (The pig is saved from (being slaughtered by an intelligent spider))<br=
>
<br>
It gets really easy to the audience if you use a colour for the<br>
arguments ({lo xarju} and {lo mencre jukni}) and another one for the<br>
main relation ({se selcatryfanta}), and label the arguments with &quot;x1&q=
uot;,<br>
&quot;x2&quot; and &quot;x3&quot;.<br>
<br>
The {fi} tag (from the fa-fe-fi-fo-fu series) unambiguosly places {lo<br>
mencre jukni} at position x3, where otherwise it corresponds to<br>
position x2. On the other hand, the thematic preposition &quot;by&quot; is<=
br>
ambiguous as to whether it refers to the saver or the killer.<br>
<br>
{cu} just separates the first argument from the predicate.<br>
<br>
Depending on your time and audience interest, you can go further to<br>
explain that:<br>
=A0 1. everything is based on properties and relations, so<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{xarju}: &quot;x1 is a pig of species x2&quot;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{jukni}: &quot;x1 is a spider of species x2&quot;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{mencre}: &quot;x1 is intelligent by standard x2&quot;<br>
=A0 =A02. {mencre} and {selcatryfanta} are just compounds from the basic wo=
rds<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{menli}: &quot;x1 is a mind of x2&quot;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{certu}: &quot;x1 is skilled at x2 by standard x3&quot;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{catra}: &quot;x1 kills x2 by method x3&quot;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{fanta}: &quot;x1 prevents x2 from happening&quot;<br>
<br>
You can also talk briefly about attitudinals and evidentials, which are amu=
sing.<br>
<br>
Some details, just for reference:<br>
=A0 1. More straightforward expressions of each meaning are<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 {lo mencre jukni cu fanta lo du&#39;u lo xarju cu se catra}<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;The intelligent spider prevents that the pig be killed&qu=
ot;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 {fanta lo du&#39;u lo mencre jukni cu catra lo xarju}<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;Something prevents that the intelligent spider kill the p=
ig&quot;<br>
=A0 2. Some (maybe most, I don&#39;t know) lojbanists would insist that, in=
<br>
the case where the spider saves the pig, it is not really the<br>
arthropode who prevents the slaughter, but some action by it taken.<br>
This implicit abstraction would be marked with a {tu&#39;a} prefixing the<b=
r>
description, so,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 {lo xarju cu se selcatryfanta tu&#39;a lo mencre jukni}<br>
=A0 3. {mencre} is a common word, defined in the dictionary.<br>
{selcatryfanta}, on the other hand, was just made up. However, it<br>
follows a very regular pattern, which assures me that any competent<br>
lojbanist should have no problem understanding it. We call this<br>
/jvajvo/, from {javni}, &quot;rule&quot;, and {lujvo}, &quot;compound&quot;=
.<br>
<br>
<br>
Hoping to have helped!<br>
<br>
mi&#39;e .filipos.<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On 10 June 2013 02:36, la arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@g=
mail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=3D4&amp;t=3D41887" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=3D4&amp;t=3D41887=
</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [...]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I request some help from any Lojbanists who may see this<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am making a presentation on conlangs, and I make a passing reference=
 to<br>
&gt; Lojban. I mention that is an engineered/logical language, but I also w=
ant to<br>
&gt; show the people what is this all about.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [...]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ----<br>
&gt; will somebody help &#39;em?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups<br>
&gt; &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an<br>
&gt; email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojb=
an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegr=
oups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?h=
l=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>=
.<br>
&gt; For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/op=
t_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+uns=
ubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
</div></div>Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/l=
ojban" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">For more options, visit <a href=3D"=
https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.=
google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .arpis.<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
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">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

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