Received: from mail-bk0-f59.google.com ([209.85.214.59]:53054) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Uo7Qk-0006xV-0q for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:33 -0700 Received: by mail-bk0-f59.google.com with SMTP id ji1sf380244bkc.14 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=1wsBTcvQxwVUpbTd2kjds6TmkEf/ntN8zoB7HZZj7zA=; b=naOyksO7PqWYWawpWq8uikmpBlymaJcler3/a0AKLBVnzUNq057U9FFPsEoi6pW9Lj owD3iZaqqHS2nSkN0sm0XpwlEEWW714JVG+eukljx9wO0BycElZMTx/AfOhFVIvyU7qE TxQvduNMCZmE/Sf0+xpQQDv5UqTTtWJJa6z16YhKqxxOTcgiwtH9qvGq7eLCX33nNsmH aq5Q/cETTyao+cf9WQsDLWlTE5v6n+wLUJd1qW5C8rNqkPXYJ41kWjHSDAn2FhCRTZME lePsr0nqzkcPWHOY6sRkpvreIyzdUZ6iChyMYf4wOC+Dk2QUmLGRq00TxPnXyZ4CUOjM cZGA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=1wsBTcvQxwVUpbTd2kjds6TmkEf/ntN8zoB7HZZj7zA=; b=b6wM+zMnrvXSRWfkhixLo4ZWQdHrWofI5pLqpnm+HuZzEK8RZbPdHddbNLJ1dWtjyP oJfofJGajAkbguS4fa8DB3n/cp9gxmz2uuZSA9IajQdI0VBxIDXt6ZRboNXoQt8Ri36B wYDvaVR3Uj2fW+ADE9EaXicEwC5CtyOSC4jeInrBatGA5RTtuKA0Jdxi1JE41013yznj Z1560tMffTVYz3fI67aURUEAZ9prHuBNk9fnYfEIbykT8vCaXPnQhaX2IqIigezho/Hg i+ji2VzA4qTIXrwau0kInf1SnSxywP3bE5ncb+MY9TWOBpifJ4KoIGcLsQjI6CDIykQe pXeA== X-Received: by 10.180.198.177 with SMTP id jd17mr119464wic.21.1371367870182; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.13.42 with SMTP id e10ls172632wic.2.canary; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.183.196 with SMTP id ch4mr722598bkb.7.1371367869577; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f178.google.com (mail-lb0-f178.google.com [209.85.217.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cm16si511056bkb.0.2013.06.16.00.31.09 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.178; Received: by mail-lb0-f178.google.com with SMTP id y6so1608258lbh.23 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.43.82 with SMTP id u18mr4269807lal.86.1371367869181; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.21.38 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:31:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <973cb611-f8d2-4aa0-85b0-e78d355e1664@googlegroups.com> References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <973cb611-f8d2-4aa0-85b0-e78d355e1664@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 01:31:09 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c34decb2f57f04df407642 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c34decb2f57f04df407642 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:58 AM, la arxokuna w= rote: > On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:38:21 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > >> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:11 PM, la arxokuna wro= te: >> >>> First let me show an extract from the loglan dictionary. >>> >>> mio (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others independently" sense, >>> the 1st 3rd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e da'. Cf. mu/= mo >>> for the "you and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I a= nd >>> others" sense of we/us. >>> mu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me jointly" sense, the 1st 2n= d >>> person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze tu'. Cf. mo for the "you and = I/me >>> independently" sense of we/us, miu/mio for the "I and others" sense of >>> we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us. >>> miu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others jointly" sense, the 1s= t >>> 3rd person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze da'. Cf. mu/mo for the "y= ou >>> and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" se= nse >>> of we/us. >>> mo (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me independently" sense, the >>> 1st 2nd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e tu'. Cf. mu for = the >>> "you and I/me jointly" sense of we/us, miu/mio for the "I and others" s= ense >>> of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us. >>> >>> What one might notice first is that there is no equivalent to "mio/miu" >>> which corresponds to English "we". >>> >>> "we" is defined in Wiktionary as "The speakers/writers, or the >>> speaker/writer and at least one other person." so the meaning is pretty >>> clear. >>> >> >> Yeah. That's {mi}. >> > > No {mi =3D le cusku be dei} > > "we" =3D {da poi na'ei du mi gi'e prenu zo'u mi .e da} > That doesn't parse. The meaning of English "we" is one of {mi}, {mi'a}, {mi'o}, or {ma'a} depending on context. The fact that English speakers have trouble distinguishing between the sharper lines on Lojban's "pronouns" doesn't matter, and attempting to change Lojban because of that is malgli. There are many cases in which Lojban is more exact than English. This is just one of them. This topic is a non-issue. However, the CLL says "English-speakers often suffer because they cannot >>> easily distinguish =93mi'o=94 from =93mi'a=94 " >>> which is indeed true. I don't understand why Lojban doesn't have "we" i= n >>> the sense English, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Hindi and Spanish have it >>> (although i suggested mi'ai a >>> few days ago). >>> >>> Now to the main issue. Even if we look at the remaining "mu/mo" we'll >>> see that Lojban has only one of them. >>> >>> The CLL says (regarding KOhA3) >>> >>> "All of these pro-sumti represent masses. For example, =93mi'o=94 is th= e >>> same as =93mi joi do=94, the mass of me and you considered jointly." >>> This means we can't talk say "Each of us carries the piano" vs. "We as = a >>> mass carry the piano" as (at least what Randall Holmes says) a mass sho= uld >>> not be converted into the conjunction of its component parts by any log= ical >>> operator because strictly speaking it shouldn't come with a privileged >>> partition >>> >>> However, jvs has two >>> definitions, the second one (by selpahi) defining {mi'o} as "mi jo'u d= o" >>> entered in December 2012. I don't remember any discussions of this issu= e at >>> that time. >>> >>> I don't know if it should be {ro mi'o bevri} vs. {lu'o mi'o bevri} o= r >>> {ro lu'a mi'o bevri} vs. {lu'o mi'o bevri}. >>> >>> So should we change the CLL to say it means {jo'u}, not {joi}? >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c34decb2f57f04df407642 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:58 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:38:21 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
=
On Sat, = Jun 15, 2013 at 11:11 PM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@= gmail.com> wrote:
First let me show an extract from the loglan dictionary.

mio (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others independently&q= uot; sense, the 1st 3rd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e = da'. Cf. mu/mo for the "you and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu= /muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.
mu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me jointly" sense,= the 1st 2nd person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze tu'. Cf. mo = for the "you and I/me independently" sense of we/us, miu/mio for = the "I and others" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you = and I and others" sense of we/us.
miu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others jointly" se= nse, the 1st 3rd person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze da'. Cf.= mu/mo for the "you and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the= "you and I and others" sense of we/us.
mo (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me independently" = sense, the 1st 2nd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e tu= 9;. Cf. mu for the "you and I/me jointly" sense of we/us, miu/mio= for the "I and others" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "= ;you and I and others" sense of we/us.

What one might notice first is that there is no e= quivalent to "mio/miu" which corresponds to English "we"= ;.=A0

"we" is defined in Wiktionary as &= quot;The speakers/writers, or the speaker/writer and at least one other per= son." so the meaning is pretty clear.

Yeah. That's {mi}.

No {mi =3D le cusku be dei}=A0

=
"we" =3D {da poi na'ei du mi gi'e prenu zo'= ;u mi .e da}

That doesn't parse.

The meaning of English= "we" is one of {mi}, {mi'a}, {mi'o}, or {ma'a} depen= ding on context. The fact that English speakers have trouble distinguishing= between the sharper lines on Lojban's "pronouns" doesn't= matter, and attempting to change Lojban because of that is malgli.

There are many cases in which Lojban is more exact than English. This i= s just one of them. This topic is a non-issue.

However, the CLL says "English-speakers often suffe= r because they cannot easily distinguish =93mi'o=94 from =93mi'a=94= " which is indeed true. I don't understand why Lojban doesn= 9;t have "we" in the sense English, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Hin= di and Spanish have it (although i suggested=A0mi'ai=A0a few days ago= ).

Now to the main issue. Even if we look at the remaining= "mu/mo" we'll see that Lojban has only one of them.

The CLL says (regarding KOhA3)

"All of these pro-sumti represent masses. For example, =93mi'o=94 = is the same as =93mi joi do=94, the mass of me and you considered jointly.&= quot;
This means we can't talk say "Each of us carries t= he piano" vs. "We as a mass carry the piano" as (at least wh= at Randall Holmes says) a mass should not be converted into the conjunction= of its component parts by any logical operator because strictly speaking i= t shouldn't come with a privileged partition

However, jvs=A0has two definitions, the second one (by s= elpahi) defining =A0{mi'o} as "mi jo'u do" entered in Dec= ember 2012. I don't remember any discussions of this issue at that time= .

I don't know if =A0it should be =A0{ro mi'o bev= ri} vs. {lu'o mi'o bevri} =A0or {ro lu'a mi'o bevri} vs. {l= u'o mi'o bevri}.

So should we change = the CLL to say it means {jo'u}, not {joi}?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. =A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo = pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side= ! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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