Received: from mail-pa0-f63.google.com ([209.85.220.63]:63081) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UoLJo-0003nE-Ci for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:21:11 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f63.google.com with SMTP id hz11sf828800pad.8 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=sxAc1Ehl56BlCtfyf+lWBMZzFlnTuvr5r95FIDnXBMg=; b=Ax8Xu4JsWjpKYrKVIWd0Dk+laZZ68pDUFsaLTIFm3dNOtCwhrHsKumDukIaQIMTcZS KI7NaHTg3M87TEI1fsEnuEQl12FTWY+QMS5iDB4VLNJtAhD1cSmW1753ogFzUSVmcfXY CVgjWmbzGLS415uPfMf8P9ewsF3ywfvyc8sfa0JkrBQ2ZZs9gdzFSVfg/UmUa6fcYerj UV/XfL80JOBbfZDtaCcLzXL+4LPxcU5sqL1lC9eu12tu5j0qFgEXJhX494pX1KRdlCrZ PvFn9ITRgzrPKaeX4fFr58g3JSmsP0TIg8xvzyRvlgJQJfklvFw3XENu9xuiiO4zLLRK hX2w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=sxAc1Ehl56BlCtfyf+lWBMZzFlnTuvr5r95FIDnXBMg=; b=JwVSxkYjR/6TsLRWB40N+wvxGf2CAc8gv6w2sKptVUdIAahkSH1gLSn2AyJAfY8EAA 3jnjlHAOF1MWgb+/VeFEEgF8zZEvCXZ6xcJQ9pDApZploN1fMqXxq1C14USmKGz7pp1u hnAUxYTekKPYjRhDvdDilntV0m7YqHJdro6/cnqyhrd0oiB+ZzCg6s9MG0pdreb52WYG 3Art50LHkwk8ILNfuW8TPwBIo9r5FhTZBm69LFIaz9SK+2FzmmlXBq/y9v/h5v8LHvFm tjn5meT9pIskXy79RUpA9mBboyUb2PFxtWUGN3tWIfdh6LybiS8nKHfv/xx0hzDVWeB5 X/Sw== X-Received: by 10.50.4.38 with SMTP id h6mr308330igh.8.1371421257796; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.98.37 with SMTP id ef5ls662896igb.38.canary; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.18.50 with SMTP id t18mr7949641igd.7.1371421257465; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x229.google.com (mail-ob0-x229.google.com [2607:f8b0:4003:c01::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s11si1315173ign.0.2013.06.16.15.20.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::229; Received: by mail-ob0-x229.google.com with SMTP id up14so2466406obb.28 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.61.73 with SMTP id n9mr7301802obr.86.1371421257260; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.5.228 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:20:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3729f7bd-3aa6-499c-9a20-4b3d040d3ad8@googlegroups.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:20:36 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A bug in the CLL 7.6 example 6.14). To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f923fb6e068b504df4ce47b X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f923fb6e068b504df4ce47b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {.i lo nei troci cu bebna} ;) On 16 June 2013 18:04, Ian Johnson wrote: > Useful examples of {nei} are somewhat hard to produce. As selbri or even > seltau it is essentially useless, because the result is recursive; this i= s > the case for 6.14. Even as sumti it's not that common, in my experience, = to > need {lo SE nei} and be unable to use both {vo'V} and {ri}, since this > means you need nesting and a nested bridi with > 2 sumti in it. > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 2:46 PM, la arxokuna = wrote: > >> http://dag.github.io/cll/7/6/ >> >> For good examples of =93nei=94 and =93no'a=94, we need nested bridi cont= exts: >> >> 6.14) mi se pluka le nu do pensi >> le nu nei kei pu le nu do zukte >> I am-pleased-by the event-of (you think-about >> (the event-of [main bridi]) before the-event of (your actin= g). >> I am pleased that you thought about whether I >> would be pleased (about ...) before you acted. >> 6.15) mi ba klama ca le nu do no'a >> I [future] go [present] the event-of you [repeats outer bridi] >> I will go when you do. >> >> >> Acc. to jvs {nei} =3D pro-bridi: repeats the current bridi. >> >> So the CLL contradicts it. >> >> I also don't understand the meaning of example 6.14) if we assume {nei} >> refers to the current bridi, not the main bridi (the one that has {se >> pluka} as a selbri). >> >> I suggest removing 6.14) and replacing it with something having the >> correct usage of {nei}. >> I suggested {mi lumci lo nei} (I wash myself) but JCowan said there coul= d >> be much better examples. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8f923fb6e068b504df4ce47b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
{.i lo nei troci cu bebna} ;)


On 16 June 2013 18:04, Ian Johnson <= span dir=3D"ltr"><blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
Useful examples of {nei} ar= e somewhat hard to produce. As selbri or even seltau it is essentially usel= ess, because the result is recursive; this is the case for 6.14. Even as su= mti it's not that common, in my experience, to need {lo SE nei} and be = unable to use both {vo'V} and {ri}, since this means you need nesting a= nd a nested bridi with > 2 sumti in it.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On= Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 2:46 PM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmai= l.com> wrote:
http://dag.github.io/cll/7/6/

For good examples of =93nei=94 and =93no'a=94, we need nested bridi con= texts:

6.14)  mi se pluka le n=
u do pensi
             le nu nei kei pu le nu do zukte
       I am-pleased-by the event-of (you think-about
             (the event-of [main bridi]) before the-event of (your acting).
       I am pleased that you thought about whether I
             would be pleased (about ...) before you acted.

6.15)  mi ba klama ca=
 le nu do no'a
       I [future] go [present] the event-of you [repeats outer bridi]
       I will go when you do.

Acc. to jvs {n= ei} =3D pro-bridi: repeats the current bridi.

So t= he CLL=A0contradicts it.

I also don't understa= nd the meaning of example 6.14) if we assume {nei} refers to the current br= idi, not the main bridi (the one that has {se pluka} as a selbri).

I suggest removing 6.14) and replacing it with somethin= g having the correct usage of {nei}.
I suggested {mi lumci lo nei= } (I wash myself) but JCowan said there could be much better examples.

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=A0
=A0

--
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=A0
=A0

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