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[66.94.237.207]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v15si1758674igr.1.2013.06.17.10.09.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.207 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.207; Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jun 2013 17:09:35 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.110] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jun 2013 17:09:35 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jun 2013 17:09:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 297966.24621.bm@omp1015.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 3351 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Jun 2013 17:09:34 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: CZotXJ8VM1no0NJYzCEjOhV7lYgMUEGJUXh1h_k.0l5iW_p jNM8hzkq1wym5eCacLBMv3xlV_Bwf8oMOJJjnGl7VcADPxljk6u94QiHdiMv hJ9WEX4v0PBhY6vC1o73o7CqBWAVqw5nxNt_.Sc3vq.PIkEnv_wkDHTyWgGY TrXwuOdgcZwMwnvThZmvKFucNj9F69qkBXRr7_1i8XqQc0u465srOAAKUVc3 lrhVg7ZBcDW6o5stNcAU7I944nqo.xRKvX_PPPFmawqKJeEMmn_CnzQoz9qb wcWzmsxNM1C_CzfCYMXbgUVJZ3uzi1N_n2knFWnL3vezcnVk89r3eIB7q5oc P0oHDsF96DbDw6zOA2e0q9zIyY6_zDKj9CZRBY.ehmP1X_2zhCUpn0eEQmB. lL1YesWj0drS9hrzSX7kuSLvOGgFjcNVp3m57BJa0LK6ui7x1Voo23i57ScP .9A9AVKRf9lGeS5uKH.KOIxM4z2aRH.pJmHSQN9u449dHq30FXHS7.Ii2ZM4 z7KnBWd.BGO_xIhFhGiSYzpYbNv3fCz7VCFCKzl.lhP9sQj8YfBaEuYBhZHf BfBcqom1HCZJS5CLH14UxWMUIwfAf60RAebdNiSeZhH10iwwcbr5oEY8cLpm s5fE3DtFUQHG6cUrpWCb4rRxrdZHu1gRhEO7zyjN9HLobkx51gxh6iaR73aL TFRKI2QwaiEjiTxKn0EHe8SHQOyKm.IUMashwzlfa8q_Htof0WrnsYFg3jXe P Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:09:34 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,QXBwYXJlbnRseSBubyBwcm9wZXIgYnJpdmxhIGVpdGhlciwgc2luY2Uge2NtaW1hfSBpcyBjbGVhcmx5IGxpbmtlZCB0byAoQy0pc2V0cy7CoCBUaGF0IGlzLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UsIGEgbWlub3IgbWF0dGVyIHRvIGNvcnJlY3QsIGFuZCBJIHN1c3BlY3QgdXNhZ2UgaGFzIGFscmVhZHkgZG9uZSBzby4KCgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCiBGcm9tOiBKb2huIEUgQ2xpZmZvcmQgPGthbGk5cHV0cmFAeWFob28uY29tPgpUbzogImxvamJhbkBnb29nbGVncm91cHMuY29tIiA8bG9qYmEBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.147.553 References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <51BDBA1D.80602@gmx.de> <51BE419F.4090806@gmx.de> <1371434761.19218.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51BEBACC.7090706@gmx.de> <1371471976.58028.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1371488442.26599.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1371488974.61609.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:09:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1371488442.26599.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.207 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-146897118-1371488974=:61609" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --1789658926-146897118-1371488974=:61609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apparently no proper brivla either, since {cmima} is clearly linked to (C-)= sets.=A0 That is, of course, a minor matter to correct, and I suspect usage= has already done so. ________________________________ From: John E Clifford To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" =20 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? =20 Ahah!=A0 More terminological problems.=A0 You use {me} because there is not= cmavo for *jest* and, indeed, no proper way to say that some object is amo= ng lo broda without periphrasis.=A0 And that goes back to pre-xorlo problem= s with sets (which could only be C-sets back then) which were useless (back= then, but why bother making them useful now?), and "masses" (back then), w= hich no one understood well.=A0 But now that all that has been clarified, l= et's get rid of the relics and stick with what we have, shoving the rest to= MEX or farther away.=A0 We still don't have a cmavo for *jest* but, since = that seems more likely to be useful than what {me} does, maybe a shift is i= n order (we have all those useless words bound up with masses and C-sets th= at can be reassigned). ________________________________ Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? =20 Sent from my iPad On Jun 17, 2013, at 7:26, John E Clifford wrote: Well, it is Lojban terminology at work again: mi and do are sets, if anythi= ng with a name (L-sets), so "union" seems appropriate, while "along with" s= ounds like accompanying, not union.=A0 {lo}expressions are also sets in the= same sense.=A0 If {lo'i} means something else, it means C-sets, which are = virtually useless for linguistic purposes and belong, if at all, to MEX.=A0= =20 >In passing, I note {me} being used for "is a member of", which is not what= it means, although I suppose it does include that meaning as a remote part. > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: selpa'i >To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 >Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 2:29 AM >Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? >=20 > >la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e >> I'm still finding this confusing, probably partly from Lojban >> terminology. mi'o is apparently the union of mi and do, written {mi >> jo'e do}?, > >Not a union, since {mi} and {do} aren't sets in the Lojban {lo'i}-sense. >So, not {jo'e}, but {jo'u}, which creates a "group" like a {lo}-sumti. > >{mi jo'u do} > >> without comment about how they interact with properties.=A0 To say, {ro >> mi'o}then says that they interact distributively and completely and >> thus amount to {ro mi e ro do}, as noted.=A0 Of course, other >> quantifiers would not break down so easily {su'o mi'o} is surely >> {su'o mi a su'o do} but nothing else works (well, {no ... e...}). > >Well, of course it's {su'o mi .a su'o do}. {su'o} corresponds to {.a}, >and {ro} to {.e}, that's why the two expressions have different expansions= . > >However, a more general way to write either expression is: > >=A0=A0=A0 PA mi'o >=3D=A0=A0=A0 PA da poi ke'a me mi'o >=3D=A0=A0=A0 PA da poi ke'a me mi jo'u do > >Thus: > >=A0=A0=A0 ro mi'o >=3D=A0=A0=A0 ro da poi ke'a me mi jo'u do >=A0=A0=A0 "For all X such that X is among the group of me and you." >=A0=A0=A0 "Everything that is among the group of me and you." > >and > >=A0=A0=A0 su'o mi'o >=3D=A0=A0=A0 su'o da poi ke'a me mi jo'u do >=A0=A0=A0 "There exists some X such that X is among the group of me and yo= u." >=A0=A0=A0 "At least one thing that is among the group of you and me." > >The basic point is that: > >=A0=A0=A0 mi .e do me mi jo'u do > >> I don't get the point about {mio}, largely because I don't quite see >> what it is supposed to be (it isn't given anywhere and doesn't appear >> to be Lojban). > >"mio" is one of the loglan words for "we". It appeared earlier in this >thread. I deliberately avoided the curly {}-quotes to set it apart from >the Lojban words, else it really does look like a typo. > >Definition of "mio" (which does *not* correspond to {mi'o}): >> mio (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others independently" >> sense, the 1st 3rd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e >> da'. > >mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. =A0 =A0 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --1789658926-146897118-1371488974=:61609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Apparently no proper = brivla either, since {cmima} is clearly linked to (C-)sets.  That is, = of course, a minor matter to correct, and I suspect usage has already done = so.

From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@= yahoo.com>
To: "loj= ban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 12:00 PM
= Subject: Re: [lojban] "we= " and masses. A bug in the CLL?

Ahah!  More terminological problems.  You use {me} because= there is not cmavo for *jest* and, indeed, no proper way to say that some = object is among lo broda without periphrasis.  And that goes back to p= re-xorlo problems with sets (which could only be C-sets back then) which we= re useless (back then, but why bother making them useful now?), and "masses= " (back then), which no one understood well.  But now that all that ha= s been clarified, let's get rid of the relics and stick with what we have, = shoving the rest to MEX or farther away.  We still don't have a cmavo = for *jest* but, since that seems more likely to be useful than what {me} do= es, maybe a shift is in order (we have all those useless words bound up wit= h masses and C-sets that can be reassigned).


Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug= in the CLL?
=


Sent from my iPad

= On Jun 17, 2013, at 7:26, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well,= it is Lojban terminology at work again: mi and do are sets, if anything wi= th a name (L-sets), so "union" seems appropriate, while "along with" sounds= like accompanying, not union.  {lo}expressions are also sets in the s= ame sense.  If {lo'i} means something else, it means C-sets, which are= virtually useless for linguistic purposes and belong, if at all, to MEX.&n= bsp;
In passing, I note {me} being used for "is a member of", which is = not what it means, although I suppose it does include that meaning as a rem= ote part.


<= div dir=3D"ltr">
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
= To: lojban@googleg= roups.com
Sent: Mo= nday, June 17, 2013 2:29 AM
Subjec= t: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
 <= /div>

la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> I'm still finding this confusing, probably= partly from Lojban
> terminology. mi'o is apparently the union of mi= and do, written {mi
> jo'e do}?,

Not a union, since {mi} and = {do} aren't sets in the Lojban {lo'i}-sense.
So, not {jo'e}, but {jo'u},= which creates a "group" like a {lo}-sumti.

{mi jo'u do}

>= without comment about how they interact with properties.  To say, {ro=
> mi'o}then says that they interact distributively and completely an= d
> thus amount to {ro mi e ro do}, as noted.  Of course, other<= br>> quantifiers would not break down so easily {su'o mi'o} is surely> {su'o mi a su'o do} but nothing else works (well, {no ... e...}).
=
Well, of course it's {su'o mi .a su'o do}. {su'o} corresponds to {.a},<= br>and {ro} to {.e}, that's why the two expressions have different expansio= ns.

However, a more general way to write either expression is:

    PA mi'o
=3D    PA da poi k= e'a me mi'o
=3D    PA da poi ke'a me mi jo'u do

Th= us:

    ro mi'o
=3D    ro da poi ke= 'a me mi jo'u do
    "For all X such that X is among the = group of me and you."
    "Everything that is among the g= roup of me and you."

and

    su'o mi'o
=3D&= nbsp;   su'o da poi ke'a me mi jo'u do
    "The= re exists some X such that X is among the group of me and you."
 &n= bsp;  "At least one thing that is among the group of you and me."
<= br>The basic point is that:

    mi .e do me mi jo'u d= o

> I don't get the point about {mio}, largely because I don't qu= ite see
> what it is supposed to be (it isn't given anywhere and does= n't appear
> to be Lojban).

"mio" is one of the loglan words for "we". It appeared earlier in this
thread. I deliberately avoided th= e curly {}-quotes to set it apart from
the Lojban words, else it really = does look like a typo.

Definition of "mio" (which does *not* corresp= ond to {mi'o}):
> mio (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others in= dependently"
> sense, the 1st 3rd person multiple variable. Equivalen= t to 'mi, e
> da'.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- You received= this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" grou= p.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to= lojban@googlegroups.com.=
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out<= /a>.




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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o= ut.
 
 
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o= ut.
 
 


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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