Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:15:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Cc: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
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On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:04:36 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>
> After slogging through this long and repetitive thread, I find I have lost 
> what the point was.  To help guiding my understanding, I summarize the 
> present situation as I understand it.
> In a given speech situation there is are a bunch (maybe only one) of 
> people speaking or being represented by the speaker ({mi}), another bunch 
> (not necessarily separate) who directly or vicariously hear the speech 
> ({do}), and a third group not directly involved in the speech act ({ko'a} 
> and just about everything else).  
> In the event being spoken about any or all of these groups (or parts of 
> them) may be involved and they may be referred to by the designations 
> derived from their speech-act roles: {mi + do}, {mi + ko'a}, {do + ko'a} 
> and {mi + do + ko'a},  in various abbreviated forms.
> On a standard Lojban assumption (at least since xorlo achieved its final 
> form), the simplest such forms refer to the united bunches.  The question 
> of how those bunches satisfy the predicates involved is left to context or 
> a demand for clarification.
> Toward clarification, then, we have a different forms for when the bunch 
> satisfies the predicate distributively (individually, more or less) and 
> when it satisfies it collectively (as a mass, ditto).  
> As a side note, the English (and perhaps many other languages') "we", does 
> not correspond directly to any of these things, since it is distinctly 
> plural (unlike {mi}) and may include or exclude any number of others.
>


1. first person. {mi=le cusku be dei} 
2. second person {do=le te cusku be dei}
3. non-person, someone not in the dialog {da'au = da poi prenu gi'e na'e 
cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} (ad hoc experimental cmavo)

Also we need 
{da'ai = da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei}

So 
I = mi
you exclusively = do
you and others = do'o = do jo'u da'au
we = mi jo'u da'ai
we exclusively  = mi jo'u da'au = mi'a
you and I = mi jo'u do = mi'o
we inclusively = mi jo'u do jo'u da'au = ma'a

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<br><br>On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:04:36 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left=
: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;backgrou=
nd-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12=
pt">After slogging through this long and repetitive thread, I find I have l=
ost what the point was.&nbsp; To help guiding my understanding, I summarize=
 the present situation as I understand it.<br>In a given speech situation t=
here is are a bunch (maybe only one) of people speaking or being represente=
d by the speaker ({mi}), another bunch (not necessarily separate) who direc=
tly or vicariously hear the speech ({do}), and a third group not directly i=
nvolved in the speech act ({ko'a} and just about everything else).&nbsp; <b=
r>In the event being spoken about any or all of these groups (or parts of t=
hem) may be involved and they may be referred to by the designations derive=
d from their speech-act roles: {mi + do}, {mi + ko'a}, {do + ko'a} and {mi =
+ do + ko'a},&nbsp; in various abbreviated forms.<br>On a standard Lojban a=
ssumption (at least
 since xorlo achieved its final form), the simplest such forms refer to the=
 united bunches.&nbsp; The question of how those bunches satisfy the predic=
ates involved is left to context or a demand for clarification.<br>Toward c=
larification, then, we have a different forms for when the bunch satisfies =
the predicate distributively (individually, more or less) and when it satis=
fies it collectively (as a mass, ditto).&nbsp; <br>As a side note, the Engl=
ish (and perhaps many other languages') "we", does not correspond directly =
to any of these things, since it is distinctly plural (unlike {mi}) and may=
 include or exclude any number of others.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>1. first person. {mi=3Dle cusku be=
 dei}&nbsp;</div><div>2. second person {do=3Dle te cusku be dei}</div><div>=
3. non-person, someone not in the dialog {da'au =3D da poi prenu gi'e na'e =
cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} (ad hoc experimental cmavo)</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Also we need&nbsp;</div><div>{da'ai =3D da poi prenu gi'e=
 na'e cusku be dei}</div><div><br></div><div>So&nbsp;</div><div>I =3D mi</d=
iv><div>you exclusively =3D do</div><div>you and others =3D do'o =3D do jo'=
u da'au</div><div>we =3D mi jo'u da'ai</div><div>we exclusively &nbsp;=3D m=
i jo'u da'au =3D mi'a</div><div>you and I =3D mi jo'u do =3D mi'o</div><div=
>we inclusively =3D mi jo'u do jo'u da'au =3D ma'a</div>

<p></p>

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