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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:31:36 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
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On 18 June 2013 06:15, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:04:36 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>>
>> After slogging through this long and repetitive thread, I find I have
>> lost what the point was.  To help guiding my understanding, I summarize the
>> present situation as I understand it.
>> In a given speech situation there is are a bunch (maybe only one) of
>> people speaking or being represented by the speaker ({mi}), another bunch
>> (not necessarily separate) who directly or vicariously hear the speech
>> ({do}), and a third group not directly involved in the speech act ({ko'a}
>> and just about everything else).
>> In the event being spoken about any or all of these groups (or parts of
>> them) may be involved and they may be referred to by the designations
>> derived from their speech-act roles: {mi + do}, {mi + ko'a}, {do + ko'a}
>> and {mi + do + ko'a},  in various abbreviated forms.
>> On a standard Lojban assumption (at least since xorlo achieved its final
>> form), the simplest such forms refer to the united bunches.  The question
>> of how those bunches satisfy the predicates involved is left to context or
>> a demand for clarification.
>> Toward clarification, then, we have a different forms for when the bunch
>> satisfies the predicate distributively (individually, more or less) and
>> when it satisfies it collectively (as a mass, ditto).
>> As a side note, the English (and perhaps many other languages') "we",
>> does not correspond directly to any of these things, since it is distinctly
>> plural (unlike {mi}) and may include or exclude any number of others.
>>
>
>
>
> 1. first person. {mi=le cusku be dei}
> 2. second person {do=le te cusku be dei}
> 3. non-person, someone not in the dialog {da'au = da poi prenu gi'e na'e
> cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} (ad hoc experimental cmavo)
>
> Also we need
> {da'ai = da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei}
>
>
I don't think experimental cmavo are at all necessary for this purpose.


> So
> I = mi
> you exclusively = do
> you and others = do'o = do jo'u da'au
> we = mi jo'u da'ai
> we exclusively  = mi jo'u da'au = mi'a
> you and I = mi jo'u do = mi'o
> we inclusively = mi jo'u do jo'u da'au = ma'a
>

you and others = do'o = do jo'u lo drata be mi .e do
others and I (could include the listener) = mi jo'u lo drata be mi (or if
you like lujvo, {lo mibdrata})
exclusive we = mi'a = mi jo'u lo drata be mi .e do
you and I = mi'o = mi jo'u do
inclusive we = ma'a = mi jo'u do jo'u lo drata be mi .e do

The only time we don't have a KOhA dedicated for the expansion is case #2,
but in my opinion, such a cmavo is unnecessary.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 18 June 2013 06:15, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.=
name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br><br>On Sunday, June 16=
, 2013 10:04:36 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">

<div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,time=
s,serif">After slogging through this long and repetitive thread, I find I h=
ave lost what the point was.=A0 To help guiding my understanding, I summari=
ze the present situation as I understand it.<br>

In a given speech situation there is are a bunch (maybe only one) of people=
 speaking or being represented by the speaker ({mi}), another bunch (not ne=
cessarily separate) who directly or vicariously hear the speech ({do}), and=
 a third group not directly involved in the speech act ({ko&#39;a} and just=
 about everything else).=A0 <br>

In the event being spoken about any or all of these groups (or parts of the=
m) may be involved and they may be referred to by the designations derived =
from their speech-act roles: {mi + do}, {mi + ko&#39;a}, {do + ko&#39;a} an=
d {mi + do + ko&#39;a},=A0 in various abbreviated forms.<br>

On a standard Lojban assumption (at least
 since xorlo achieved its final form), the simplest such forms refer to the=
 united bunches.=A0 The question of how those bunches satisfy the predicate=
s involved is left to context or a demand for clarification.<br>Toward clar=
ification, then, we have a different forms for when the bunch satisfies the=
 predicate distributively (individually, more or less) and when it satisfie=
s it collectively (as a mass, ditto).=A0 <br>

As a side note, the English (and perhaps many other languages&#39;) &quot;w=
e&quot;, does not correspond directly to any of these things, since it is d=
istinctly plural (unlike {mi}) and may include or exclude any number of oth=
ers.</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>=
1. first person. {mi=3Dle cusku be dei}=A0</div><div>2. second person {do=
=3Dle te cusku be dei}</div><div>3. non-person, someone not in the dialog {=
da&#39;au =3D da poi prenu gi&#39;e na&#39;e cusku be dei gi&#39;e na&#39;e=
 te cusku be dei} (ad hoc experimental cmavo)</div>

<div><br></div><div>Also we need=A0</div><div>{da&#39;ai =3D da poi prenu g=
i&#39;e na&#39;e cusku be dei}</div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div style>I don&#39;t think experimental cmavo are at all necessary fo=
r this purpose.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>So=A0</div><di=
v>I =3D mi</div><div>you exclusively =3D do</div><div>you and others =3D do=
&#39;o =3D do jo&#39;u da&#39;au</div>

<div>we =3D mi jo&#39;u da&#39;ai</div><div>we exclusively =A0=3D mi jo&#39=
;u da&#39;au =3D mi&#39;a</div><div>you and I =3D mi jo&#39;u do =3D mi&#39=
;o</div><div>we inclusively =3D mi jo&#39;u do jo&#39;u da&#39;au =3D ma=
9;a</div></blockquote>

<div><br></div><div style>you and others =3D do&#39;o =3D do jo&#39;u lo dr=
ata be mi .e do</div><div style>others and I (could include the listener) =
=3D mi jo&#39;u lo drata be mi (or if you like lujvo, {lo mibdrata})</div><=
div style>

exclusive we =3D mi&#39;a =3D mi jo&#39;u lo drata be mi .e do</div><div st=
yle>you and I =3D mi&#39;o =3D mi jo&#39;u do</div><div style>inclusive we =
=3D ma&#39;a =3D mi jo&#39;u do jo&#39;u lo drata be mi .e do</div><div sty=
le><br>
</div>
<div style>The only time we don&#39;t have a KOhA dedicated for the expansi=
on is case #2, but in my opinion, such a cmavo is unnecessary.=A0</div><div=
 style><br></div><div style>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div></div></div>

</div>

<p></p>

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