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A bug in the CLL? References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <1371405876.998.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5a62e3e4-6bad-47c1-b6ad-86639420b7aa@googlegroups.com> <34087CDB-5C29-47F5-9257-D02B91A2502F@yahoo.com> <5958d62e-ea83-400a-8936-1f57aa1580b4@googlegroups.com> <97A72722-A86B-4774-B5A2-187F9129388B@yahoo.com> <50799cc6-dd21-4c1b-9dfb-f4ce0928d0f3@googlegroups.com> <156ead61-3e49-444f-ba1a-c808839fd50d@googlegroups.com> <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> From: "John E. Clifford" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> Message-Id: <5A6C07CB-C2CA-4A7A-9B4B-D5DAACA61069@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:19:41 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-074671D9-A79D-418C-96BB-2ACC88B142AE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam_score: 1.0 X-Spam_score_int: 10 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. [...] Content analysis details: (1.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature --Apple-Mail-074671D9-A79D-418C-96BB-2ACC88B142AE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is a= ctually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the spe= aker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2013, at 12:17, "John E. Clifford" wrote: > Vagueness. We don't have determined boundaries (incomplete criterion, no= t more than one criterion) >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:18, la arxokuna wrote= : >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:44:16 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >> Yes, and even with {lo}. {cusku} is not {bacru} (and even that can have= more than one, hence choruses). Nor need it be nearly as intimate as the B= org; consider "informed sources said today". >>=20 >>=20 >> Is it ambiguity of "we" or vagueness? >> =20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Jun 19, 2013, at 9:26, la arxokuna wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:57:00 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>> But it misses (not commenting on whether would ever really want to do t= his). "we" is clearly plural but says nothing about how the members of tha= t plurality are related to this nu cusku, beyond the fact that one member (= already in {mi}) is uttering the instant token. In particular, they may al= l be saying this or only the one who is uttering it, and some may be among = its target audience and some not. >>>=20 >>> Do you mean that "we" can also assume that {le cusku be dei} can includ= e more than one individual ("We are the Borg") and no individuals outside t= his dialog? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>> On Jun 18, 2013, at 23:58, la arxokuna wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:19:05 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>> gleki, I think you're too vlafi'i happy, for one thing, and nothing sa= id in this entire thread has changed my mind about this all being a non-iss= ue. >>>>=20 >>>> The issue comes only when trying to precisely translate some sentences= into lojban retaining the same level of vagueness. >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>=20 >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > =20 > =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --Apple-Mail-074671D9-A79D-418C-96BB-2ACC88B142AE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Oops!  I probably sh= ould have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither. &nb= sp;It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associ= ate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.

Sent from my iPad
=

On Jun 19, 2013, at 12:17, "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Vagueness.  We don't have= determined boundaries (incomplete criterion, not more than one criterion)<= br>
Sent from my iPad

On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:18, la arxoku= na <gleki.is.my.name@gmail= .com> wrote:

=

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:44:16 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Yes, a= nd even with {lo}.  {cusku} is not {bacru} (and even that can have mor= e than one, hence choruses). Nor need it be nearly as intimate as the Borg;= consider "informed sources said today".
<= br>

Is it ambiguity of "we" or vagueness?
 

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 19, 2013, at 9:26,= la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wednesday, June 19, 2013= 5:57:00 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
But it misses (not commenting on whether wou= ld ever really want to do this).  "we" is clearly plural but says noth= ing about how the members of that plurality are related to this nu cusku, b= eyond the fact that one member (already in {mi}) is uttering the instant to= ken.  In particular, they may all be saying this or only the one who i= s uttering it, and some may be among its target audience and some not.
<= /div>

Do you mean that "we" can also = assume that {le cusku be dei} can include more than one individual ("We are= the Borg") and no individuals outside this dialog?


Sent= from my iPad

On Jun 18, 2013, at 23:58, la arxokuna <g= leki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 11:19:05 PM UTC+4, aionys= wrote:
gleki, I think you're too vl= afi'i happy, for one thing, and nothing said in this entire thread has chan= ged my mind about this all being a non-issue.

The issue comes only when trying to precisely translat= e some sentences into lojban retaining the same level of vagueness.
 

--
mu'o mi'e= .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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