Received: from mail-yh0-f59.google.com ([209.85.213.59]:64437) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UpeIJ-0004a5-N2 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:49:11 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f59.google.com with SMTP id f10sf2163193yha.24 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:48:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9TFcgc1qPHJZfimaU80XbGBhTycnyDRyDnQ6HpBybWc=; b=pFV/7PdX7PtUxCmvnqF7XP6lu2MkvZpwRrxgi/PK3qxdGYbPJ9H4WBv4+xIf80+CFr Zz7OtA8mO3ROO4nTU4YQY6SuXrsamWkuxsF98/wXhyDMDW+qUTbwRUAfCXWlbQIOZpDU KXYwO9DZfM3AbqgLcJk4S8NFzhp1feqwIYTfVQwP6gigNMhiDVVeaFsc0ih8oGT7Oq3H VBCKyX8KV+4YcwE9ayLVsunbfEAZpmCt5w4uJotSS3krZqDF2WNV1PjrZw4HA0wltDsE balrmFjWoh6tR2bBQWNYodPYOfqjg9OSEUJdG9b/PYslXbIl3MwfcxOdoDwLlpfDGov7 1WGA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9TFcgc1qPHJZfimaU80XbGBhTycnyDRyDnQ6HpBybWc=; b=ByWk/AWHLfu6Te+p1zqtyCJ1Wih6899BGDaDnH47mSlau52t1wm90REdigG7Tis3hz Lbne5ftMESvQdRL2cgpqx5m+WUpGE624oYvdot/iD71CW02JkdLJdbIDBKvMVitNeVGA 1jFBAg8O6XZBas4+L8LXQvVUnjF0bzrv666N62zNi6uDOppD3dvZUV1hm58tHH7qd874 GZsZ3ROom/vAbYj2RJNzdj+u7gJ0jRdoW4zyEqflo3E6c7hhLGyjkh9n0uOFIGitcc3W Z8znOK/Rliq6YLSDYax4n3CEqHhihzLeDPQUKQAdUdpUc/AAmJUjZUP9LXemtv7BK6rX ihNA== X-Received: by 10.50.131.135 with SMTP id om7mr406361igb.7.1371732519681; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.50.202 with SMTP id e10ls348398igo.43.canary; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.73.69 with SMTP id j5mr255797igv.14.1371732519222; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:48:38 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <042628dd-5308-4d8e-b09c-400c03d5a3f9@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <579FEEE0-567D-4896-8391-C68E99ADEFCC@yahoo.com> References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <1371405876.998.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5a62e3e4-6bad-47c1-b6ad-86639420b7aa@googlegroups.com> <34087CDB-5C29-47F5-9257-D02B91A2502F@yahoo.com> <5958d62e-ea83-400a-8936-1f57aa1580b4@googlegroups.com> <97A72722-A86B-4774-B5A2-187F9129388B@yahoo.com> <50799cc6-dd21-4c1b-9dfb-f4ce0928d0f3@googlegroups.com> <156ead61-3e49-444f-ba1a-c808839fd50d@googlegroups.com> <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> <5A6C07CB-C2CA-4A7A-9B4B-D5DAACA61069@yahoo.com> <42d6ef31-3311-4181-b1a9-468271e86ac4@googlegroups.com> <579FEEE0-567D-4896-8391-C68E99ADEFCC@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_85_24471666.1371732518416" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_85_24471666.1371732518416 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an > identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. For the rest it is over > specification in that these other things may or may not be included. {lo} > does it's usual selection job in context. In particular, lo na'e cusku are > not to be included, by the nature of the gadri. > Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=the speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that that other persons are to be viewed as speakers. > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >> >> I thought I just did. >> > > > Where is {dei} in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak > or those to whom something is spoken? No. > > "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku > be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} > > >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>> >>> Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" >>> is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the >>> speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. >>> >> >> >> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_85_24471666.1371732518416 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
So, {lo= za'u cusku be dei }.  {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an identity,= merely a predication, probably {poi}.  For the rest it is over specif= ication in that these other things may or may not be included.  {lo} d= oes it's usual selection job in context.  In particular, lo na'e cusku= are not to be included, by the nature of the gadri. 

Don't you think that your definiti= on contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe speaker and at least one= other person" ? It is not said that that other persons are to be viewed as= speakers.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 2= 0, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote= :



On Thursda= y, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I thought I just did. 


Where is {dei}=  in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak or those = to whom something is spoken? No.

"we" is either {m= i no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e t= e cusku be dei}


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 2= 0, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Wednesday,= June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Oops!  I probably should h= ave said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither.  It = is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)= ", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.

Do you think you can give a precise definition o= f {zo'oi we} in Lojban?

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