Received: from mail-vc0-f186.google.com ([209.85.220.186]:55641) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UpfDR-0005T0-T3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 06:48:10 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f186.google.com with SMTP id gd11sf2114199vcb.23 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 06:47:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2p/dIqI/2qyo8GL7lhoGF36bCZmBJdo2gR92YJYN2wE=; b=xKUKKBjOOOy9zlUSaOMMPcYpG0T75PGlTdEr6dtuoFHqr0YBsIhyhTjoBWNlXrmuRR +5pMt20AR+KaaMVj9ESOMQqmDwNYdhbISkFz002IAko636vRXz68BwjCpVlttRn/0nph WQAvMVSAlqMYmvzpCMjtNzvkZlYzes9VVAq/8YZ/37SKhZSH03L8noO0ckxw5fCGzFuc 3jdXsNmkfdAYHT9+FlwCifS7qLhwZKCjigSE8GcoQnVTUKBOUTbItX8DY2GlsV7nn2P+ ZcctRg3qCVX4l50IVZpkifX0MSIZEipl47pe/YFLCRaBAtUfDScsQogu2vme8pd24Byl 6TVg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2p/dIqI/2qyo8GL7lhoGF36bCZmBJdo2gR92YJYN2wE=; b=X6knQzV+jJuG4lwJF23hzH54V80NSg5+HPT4tPXk+JghS2v1PqmoWu76gnfWUJCotV SMRLOek8Uubjml90crrwHfPa/jgZA53LVHsYdbUfeqEJhqfMJDQH8mozwgtUdRt98BTJ HN+VWACk7blUt1CfDp5G483TxFSDjwF+CMtsBNg+zl2+6vVKWgSiSyMQ7qRaohHxL5yO OE7rWgtT5A882wkvkgJ7K6pckLgcQRRuhBr1AVcxB+WgUzQv+WwHnyh104xxnsXRNy2E NzWi16J8kV3AmFxOhPeaPLmXsl/f03ugJSqSA1QW853+aYJfEVMNko9cMqY76xE4Wze6 qkHQ== X-Received: by 10.50.141.225 with SMTP id rr1mr412257igb.17.1371736068390; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 06:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.43.163 with SMTP id x3ls365483igl.37.canary; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.66.134 with SMTP id f6mr416022igt.13.1371736067920; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <40015169-9cff-401d-bac3-24330b920b6c@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <08B4257D-2310-4955-B5D4-E8E1FD5D6A35@yahoo.com> References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <1371405876.998.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5a62e3e4-6bad-47c1-b6ad-86639420b7aa@googlegroups.com> <34087CDB-5C29-47F5-9257-D02B91A2502F@yahoo.com> <5958d62e-ea83-400a-8936-1f57aa1580b4@googlegroups.com> <97A72722-A86B-4774-B5A2-187F9129388B@yahoo.com> <50799cc6-dd21-4c1b-9dfb-f4ce0928d0f3@googlegroups.com> <156ead61-3e49-444f-ba1a-c808839fd50d@googlegroups.com> <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> <5A6C07CB-C2CA-4A7A-9B4B-D5DAACA61069@yahoo.com> <42d6ef31-3311-4181-b1a9-468271e86ac4@googlegroups.com> <579FEEE0-567D-4896-8391-C68E99ADEFCC@yahoo.com> <042628dd-5308-4d8e-b09c-400c03d5a3f9@googlegroups.com> <08B4257D-2310-4955-B5D4-E8E1FD5D6A35@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2775_19193131.1371736067408" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2775_19193131.1371736067408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; > who else depends on context. But, since this is a first person pronoun, > those others cusku this as well (definitional). > How can they cusku if they are not in this dialog? English "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}. > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >> >> So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an >> identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. For the rest it is over >> specification in that these other things may or may not be included. {lo} >> does it's usual selection job in context. In particular, lo na'e cusku are >> not to be included, by the nature of the gadri. >> > > Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says that > "we=the speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that that > other persons are to be viewed as speakers. > > >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>> >>> I thought I just did. >>> >> >> >> Where is {dei} in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who >> speak or those to whom something is spoken? No. >> >> "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku >> be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} >> >> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>> >>>> Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" >>>> is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the >>>> speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban? >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_2775_19193131.1371736067408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
An Engl= ish uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; who else d= epends on context.  But, since this is a first person pronoun, those o= thers cusku this as well (definitional).
<= br>
How can they cusku if they are not  in this dialog? Engl= ish "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}.


Sent from my = iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is= ...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrot= e:
So,= {lo za'u cusku be dei }.  {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an ident= ity, merely a predication, probably {poi}.  For the rest it is over sp= ecification in that these other things may or may not be included.  {l= o} does it's usual selection job in context.  In particular, lo na'e c= usku are not to be included, by the nature of the gadri. =

Don't you think that your defi= nition contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe speaker and at least= one other person" ? It is not said that that other persons are to be viewe= d as speakers.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 2= 0, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, = June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I thought I just did. 


Where is {dei} &n= bsp;in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak or those to = whom something is spoken? No.

"we" is either {mi n= o'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e te c= usku be dei}


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, = 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>


On Wednesday, Ju= ne 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Oops!  I probably should have= said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither.  It is,= however, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)", = exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.


Do you think you can give a precise definition of {= zo'oi we} in Lojban?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
------=_Part_2775_19193131.1371736067408--