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Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
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From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:56:57 -0500
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 Content preview:  I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}.
    People not involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or
    intended audience, are third person, by definition, again. A person doesn't
    have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even have
    to be alive, apparently. [...] 
 
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I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}.  People not=
 involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or intended a=
udience, are third person, by definition, again.  A person doesn't have to =
be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even have to be a=
live, apparently.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
> An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; w=
ho else depends on context.  But, since this is a first person pronoun, tho=
se others cusku this as well (definitional).
>=20
> How can they cusku if they are not  in this dialog? English "we" covers {=
mi jo'u mibdrata}.
>=20
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
> On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>> So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }.  {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an iden=
tity, merely a predication, probably {poi}.  For the rest it is over specif=
ication in that these other things may or may not be included.  {lo} does i=
t's usual selection job in context.  In particular, lo na'e cusku are not t=
o be included, by the nature of the gadri.=20
>>=20
>> Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says th=
at "we=3Dthe speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that t=
hat other persons are to be viewed as speakers.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPad
>>=20
>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>>> I thought I just did.=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Where is {dei}  in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who sp=
eak or those to whom something is spoken? No.
>>>=20
>>> "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cus=
ku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei}
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>=20
>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>>>> Oops!  I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we"=
 is actually neither.  It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of th=
e speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban=
?
>>>> --=20
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups "lojban" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "lojban" group.
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an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>=20
>> --=20
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s "lojban" group.
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n email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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>> =20
>> =20
>=20
> --=20
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 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> =20
> =20

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>I am assuming that person=
 for Lojban is defined around {cusku}. &nbsp;People not involved in the cur=
rent utterance, either as intended source or intended audience, are third p=
erson, by definition, again. &nbsp;A person doesn't have to be present to f=
ill a first or second person role, doesn't even have to be alive, apparentl=
y.</div><div><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:=
47, la arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.=
my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, cliffor=
d wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0=
.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFF=
F"><div>An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is=
 in; who else depends on context. &nbsp;But, since this is a first person p=
ronoun, those others cusku this as well (definitional).<br></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>How can they cusku if they are not &nbsp;in th=
is dialog? English "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}.</div><div><br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-=
left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><br>=
Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna &lt;<=
a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"p-JIHD9E2=
ecJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, =
clifford wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-l=
eft:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFF=
FFF"><div>So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. &nbsp;{no'u} just sounds wrong;it is=
 not an identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. &nbsp;For the rest =
it is over specification in that these other things may or may not be inclu=
ded. &nbsp;{lo} does it's usual selection job in context. &nbsp;In particul=
ar, lo na'e cusku are not to be included, by the nature of the gadri.<span>=
&nbsp;</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Don't you think t=
hat your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe speaker=
 and at least one other person" ? It is not said that that other persons ar=
e to be viewed as speakers.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div>=
<br>On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna &lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>O=
n Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>I thought I just did.=
&nbsp;<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Where=
 is {dei} &nbsp;in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak =
or those to whom something is spoken? No.</div><div><br></div><div>"we" is =
either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi=
'e na'e te cusku be dei}</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br=
>On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna &lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On W=
ednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Oops! &nbsp;I probably=
 should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither. =
&nbsp;It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and ass=
ociate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.<br></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Do you think you can give a precise def=
inition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban?</div>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
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&nbsp;<br />
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