Received: from mail-pa0-f55.google.com ([209.85.220.55]:49797) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UphSA-0006jO-Rk for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:11:24 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f55.google.com with SMTP id bi5sf2266376pad.10 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TkhtwZ3EJ1BoJUIp/fGhfGLsucayOfD+5eQdWPXfQmY=; b=rvJXqjlorFfanipxSghgtTUP+n7QCIdRBJ+vo/ipepxr6G7zERCNdcnWjlysgOiO6k Ls5Ym6BiIn1ClWIjg/hd3EWke0NXpjntEWqj0ntviU4QixxLWF7Mpg943j1yVmh8GkkG 63rAnkwr/qWytR6qXm/dtgh1pMDIoVPtZpcXo+U7laOsf5w701T1iXGkoSW/86gxNLH2 T3Zl12LZNbk4U+OvG/QSV7TZBj2RIfO2DZYDVJ7lveAePaTUEqrPJufDQFkVbchIrVYA 9E7rdVJzPznAaeeEXMaouNXoF5rucn00NnmMfRM3I4NXVgp3K1JCJVTYnEaGdR3bVPF7 0B+A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TkhtwZ3EJ1BoJUIp/fGhfGLsucayOfD+5eQdWPXfQmY=; b=zss0w3CumJF/lnVVUPIkzQ6hHOZxwYGTCXhMblaZYVFQIgtydKJDDQTF+xsZxNGoM9 232L3RdG9nX4bmeRYXz/f6VRhbNaTEmGqWny6DtJWEtoNE7uX0Jq7xdeP5eh/yzifvrg mFW+aOhoxc7dWj1ucquRugrcpBpj3xIuTEeFLa/0mutKicysl1BUNTh8p1KJRjPaRmg6 dkku19w7a3rfWJhtPvtRIy1C1Pue6hhNS+B2iLUm6tgXyfjpH2ixAov2TLYodSEabgo5 GafzgVA8CgPjMoYlun5GA1H+MRn7J/oXbO2+pOO/Eo+zFd5IbOInfs1pWH42AJFCpsNM ZSnQ== X-Received: by 10.50.126.33 with SMTP id mv1mr13719igb.1.1371744672375; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.178.228 with SMTP id db4ls415578igc.17.canary; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:11:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.3.74 with SMTP id a10mr13284iga.2.1371744671792; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <4a536dd1-b5e5-4363-aa77-e8aadd511d37@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <1371405876.998.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5a62e3e4-6bad-47c1-b6ad-86639420b7aa@googlegroups.com> <34087CDB-5C29-47F5-9257-D02B91A2502F@yahoo.com> <5958d62e-ea83-400a-8936-1f57aa1580b4@googlegroups.com> <97A72722-A86B-4774-B5A2-187F9129388B@yahoo.com> <50799cc6-dd21-4c1b-9dfb-f4ce0928d0f3@googlegroups.com> <156ead61-3e49-444f-ba1a-c808839fd50d@googlegroups.com> <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> <5A6C07CB-C2CA-4A7A-9B4B-D5DAACA61069@yahoo.com> <42d6ef31-3311-4181-b1a9-468271e86ac4@googlegroups.com> <579FEEE0-567D-4896-8391-C68E99ADEFCC@yahoo.com> <042628dd-5308-4d8e-b09c-400c03d5a3f9@googlegroups.com> <08B4257D-2310-4955-B5D4-E8E1FD5D6A35@yahoo.com> <40015169-9cff-401d-bac3-24330b920b6c@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4560_4593627.1371744670957" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_4560_4593627.1371744670957 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}. People > not involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or > intended audience, are third person, by definition, again. A person > doesn't have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't > even have to be alive, apparently. > And "we" can include third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that guy over there and I) will do it". > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >> >> An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; >> who else depends on context. But, since this is a first person pronoun, >> those others cusku this as well (definitional). >> > > How can they cusku if they are not in this dialog? English "we" covers > {mi jo'u mibdrata}. > > >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>> >>> So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an >>> identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. For the rest it is over >>> specification in that these other things may or may not be included. {lo} >>> does it's usual selection job in context. In particular, lo na'e cusku are >>> not to be included, by the nature of the gadri. >>> >> >> Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says >> that "we=the speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that >> that other persons are to be viewed as speakers. >> >> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>> >>>> I thought I just did. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Where is {dei} in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who >>> speak or those to whom something is spoken? No. >>> >>> "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e >>> cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} >>> >>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" >>>>> is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the >>>>> speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_4560_4593627.1371744670957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I am as= suming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}.  People not i= nvolved in the current utterance, either as intended source or intended aud= ience, are third person, by definition, again.  A person doesn't have = to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even have to b= e alive, apparently.

And "we" c= an include third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that guy over the= re and I) will do it".
 


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail= .com> wrote:

=

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
An English u= ncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; who else depend= s on context.  But, since this is a first person pronoun, those others= cusku this as well (definitional).

How can they cusku if they are not  in this dialog? English "= we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
So, {lo za'u cusku= be dei }.  {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an identity, merely a p= redication, probably {poi}.  For the rest it is over specification in = that these other things may or may not be included.  {lo} does it's us= ual selection job in context.  In particular, lo na'e cusku are not to= be included, by the nature of the gadri. 

Don't you think that your definition contradi= cts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe speaker and at least one other pers= on" ? It is not said that that other persons are to be viewed as speakers.<= /div>



On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:= 16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I thought I just did. 


Where is {dei}  in {lo za'u = cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak or those to whom something i= s spoken? No.

"we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or = {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei}


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, l= a arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:1= 9:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Oops!  I probably should have said {na'i} (fa= lse dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither.  It is, however, contex= tual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u= cusku}, I I think.


Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Loj= ban?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
------=_Part_4560_4593627.1371744670957--