Received: from mail-yh0-f60.google.com ([209.85.213.60]:47875) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Upj3U-0007SO-BF for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:54:04 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f60.google.com with SMTP id i57sf2180526yha.15 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:53:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tVH7YH5WtYeSWWHVATXsQ3Mc7WkWzCFBRrvfETEUxjc=; b=NHLsGBzaOMAQ7SjoytJ1ywv6jI2Ok/XwNaTm7/hZP0/MAVN7PQo+Js+joGRXqTJIYH caw7JUgGths9P6shzJuWKFg9YJLCFb0LlLctpt1KVPlwcGJ+ALAPC3xBZUHFwmniWMql 4H9s0o7l8RvPtNagdlppJuF8BYP00nySddhamxI1t7E/BCMY2xIXJHm1MRIs7TPon71E foWJHvqFAYxtMPao+9QaLfBc+j7SfsxhekyhHE2ydijA5i9dKVf2wcSuMDGodQ5Nf9Tx DaajPkXWehGZkWa3cGTCNsA+TbkXxcDNsZU1+nxFVA2ylKWqTE3jL1xJ1C+cVguUOPWk K4Og== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tVH7YH5WtYeSWWHVATXsQ3Mc7WkWzCFBRrvfETEUxjc=; b=m6EWKaZelrHpBvu0xcXqT1tbeko4NNQl6OxHDwQ3y28gFJaefcG2+EKwIGnmGlr4Mk zMqojpSUBcwphwo/OugI1JwoQx+68ExpIZT73Ykv68GfDvrL+YcW4JT+bybWWSgeeIgj S+HasXIbfKDx3pD4R6FYMVcxBSZ/q9xCLYwzN1IMXmeV275d29+bBU6+L2+lubc4XZMP zgKSdsWnlFTvwcFgxUY79jEWkqlZEPWorKRLhJQAY7NlAA0lAMeBAdgcZpcukwWIRy0R 3zCx2z5itrEmrw0+KPzWiqBw9gWqVokHCMVVTbIO83snIWmhsiInBzGYgTNEQXnnlThN PlzA== X-Received: by 10.49.133.201 with SMTP id pe9mr202175qeb.34.1371750828794; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.82.74 with SMTP id g10ls791470qey.60.gmail; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.1.112 with SMTP id 16mr180049qel.20.1371750828292; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:53:47 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <82825fbe-d24f-4766-af88-55d8698fa945@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <1371405876.998.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5a62e3e4-6bad-47c1-b6ad-86639420b7aa@googlegroups.com> <34087CDB-5C29-47F5-9257-D02B91A2502F@yahoo.com> <5958d62e-ea83-400a-8936-1f57aa1580b4@googlegroups.com> <97A72722-A86B-4774-B5A2-187F9129388B@yahoo.com> <50799cc6-dd21-4c1b-9dfb-f4ce0928d0f3@googlegroups.com> <156ead61-3e49-444f-ba1a-c808839fd50d@googlegroups.com> <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> <5A6C07CB-C2CA-4A7A-9B4B-D5DAACA61069@yahoo.com> <42d6ef31-3311-4181-b1a9-468271e86ac4@googlegroups.com> <579FEEE0-567D-4896-8391-C68E99ADEFCC@yahoo.com> <042628dd-5308-4d8e-b09c-400c03d5a3f9@googlegroups.com> <08B4257D-2310-4955-B5D4-E8E1FD5D6A35@yahoo.com> <40015169-9cff-401d-bac3-24330b920b6c@googlegroups.com> <4a536dd1-b5e5-4363-aa77-e8aadd511d37@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1_29254176.1371750827840" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1_29254176.1371750827840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:31:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:11 AM, la arxokuna > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>> >>> I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}. People >>> not involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or >>> intended audience, are third person, by definition, again. A person >>> doesn't have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't >>> even have to be alive, apparently. >>> >> >> And "we" can include third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that >> guy over there and I) will do it". >> > > mi'a > Exactly. va'i English "we" is either {mi'a} or {mi'o} or {ma'a}. Or in other words {mi jo'u mibdrata}. So why bind it only to the participants of the dialog? > >> >> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>> >>>> An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; >>>> who else depends on context. But, since this is a first person pronoun, >>>> those others cusku this as well (definitional). >>>> >>> >>> How can they cusku if they are not in this dialog? English "we" covers >>> {mi jo'u mibdrata}. >>> >>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>> >>>>> So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an >>>>> identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. For the rest it is over >>>>> specification in that these other things may or may not be included. {lo} >>>>> does it's usual selection job in context. In particular, lo na'e cusku are >>>>> not to be included, by the nature of the gadri. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says >>>> that "we=the speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that >>>> that other persons are to be viewed as speakers. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I thought I just did. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Where is {dei} in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who >>>>> speak or those to whom something is spoken? No. >>>>> >>>>> "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e >>>>> cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since >>>>>>> "we" is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group >>>>>>> of the speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in >>>>>> Lojban? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_1_29254176.1371750827840 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:31:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On T= hu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:11 AM, la arxokuna <gleki= .is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}.  Peopl= e not involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or inten= ded audience, are third person, by definition, again.  A person doesn'= t have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even ha= ve to be alive, apparently.

And "we" can include third per= sons not involved in the dialog. "We (that guy over there and I) will do it= ".

mi'a


Exactly. va'i
English "we" is either {mi'a= } or {mi'o} or {ma'a}. Or in other words {mi jo'u mibdrata}. So why bind it= only to the participants of the dialog?

 
=
 


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 20= 13, at 8:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

<= br>
On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
An English uncertainty about just who cusku? = We know the utterer is in; who else depends on context.  But, since th= is is a first person pronoun, those others cusku this as well (definitional= ).

How can they cusku if they are= not  in this dialog? English "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20= , 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, J= une 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }.  {no'u} jus= t sounds wrong;it is not an identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}.=  For the rest it is over specification in that these other things may= or may not be included.  {lo} does it's usual selection job in contex= t.  In particular, lo na'e cusku are not to be included, by the nature= of the gadri. 

Don't you think that your definition= contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe speaker and at least one o= ther person" ? It is not said that that other persons are to be viewed as s= peakers.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la = arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Thursday, Ju= ne 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I thought I just did. 


Where is {dei}  in {lo z= a'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak or those to whom somethi= ng is spoken? No.

"we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi pre= nu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei}


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20= , 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Wednesday, = June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Oops!  I probably should have said {na'i= } (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither.  It is, however, c= ontextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo= za'u cusku}, I I think.


Do you think yo= u can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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--
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--
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--
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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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