Received: from mail-fa0-f57.google.com ([209.85.161.57]:37340) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Upj5G-0007Tm-0z for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:55 -0700 Received: by mail-fa0-f57.google.com with SMTP id u1sf1245505fae.12 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=C49U+yUqHVBgEqAQ49nxuAAqt73frrsTddyFVXnsWtw=; b=IogZ1Qy1i4Ot8KH2mRS5tFblGvk5TAtIcehvJ6y0VRH+dLrShqZJ0LbwIhbenmD4x2 DDPpiuq+53vXEhXHlACYFmd7IkoXMzugTESVpvnqyHKV9RzgGoB17cDFkdkNTFUZYe+g Qbe7I4ksM6nwoj7B6YrZh4Y1yGVhGY+cXohaW59nUUiJz9SuQDJZFQA2uTniMumMHWnP UfHfi4IkNfEfGbzmZPUYctaGFdrwnNAzzp8lNy1urXBwD+LI3TlyFPS7scU9N9M/h72g YTqUlBdVIIrFKug7V8e20f9vR/2PiSYJQOve4if75WWSwTujny1BmBUBIiApabOXhS7u e07A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=C49U+yUqHVBgEqAQ49nxuAAqt73frrsTddyFVXnsWtw=; b=FBYuBL+VRdnwvVb/9ORIAhFDnB2Jl/p/5r2uBaEvs4Eg0lj/k6aP/qjpXlVs3HFwJ8 RXdHNcTilpPgQlw9ztYWeN35kMRWMqYdiYSZndo6k9Tej4NRr+xI8ymHRgERxZ99HeXG X7AWyd839/j/lTIzg0mi/6y9qcrwcB0YF1IImoo/LZoNSBQMFBoXaGeSN5utm5KlcIzV n38tbNjrrZgawZ8M6FiJA7Q6RSYfq9tkFgLOe2tODIqJApq/uEIN6sOfMm5dIuWWMSXu xgCjQB4MYhArjBvWXVOe6HyG8LD8NojrEC/8zuASts26gdQQTdTusbnpDw/UJGQ80xQ6 8Z5w== X-Received: by 10.180.187.75 with SMTP id fq11mr28140wic.2.1371750938021; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.80.6 with SMTP id n6ls201318wix.18.canary; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.224.8 with SMTP id im8mr1023121bkb.5.1371750936271; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x236.google.com (mail-la0-x236.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cm16si85343bkb.0.2013.06.20.10.55.36 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::236; Received: by mail-la0-x236.google.com with SMTP id ec20so5793145lab.41 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.144.34 with SMTP id sj2mr1120602lbb.10.1371750936019; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.21.38 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <82825fbe-d24f-4766-af88-55d8698fa945@googlegroups.com> References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <1371405876.998.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5a62e3e4-6bad-47c1-b6ad-86639420b7aa@googlegroups.com> <34087CDB-5C29-47F5-9257-D02B91A2502F@yahoo.com> <5958d62e-ea83-400a-8936-1f57aa1580b4@googlegroups.com> <97A72722-A86B-4774-B5A2-187F9129388B@yahoo.com> <50799cc6-dd21-4c1b-9dfb-f4ce0928d0f3@googlegroups.com> <156ead61-3e49-444f-ba1a-c808839fd50d@googlegroups.com> <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> <5A6C07CB-C2CA-4A7A-9B4B-D5DAACA61069@yahoo.com> <42d6ef31-3311-4181-b1a9-468271e86ac4@googlegroups.com> <579FEEE0-567D-4896-8391-C68E99ADEFCC@yahoo.com> <042628dd-5308-4d8e-b09c-400c03d5a3f9@googlegroups.com> <08B4257D-2310-4955-B5D4-E8E1FD5D6A35@yahoo.com> <40015169-9cff-401d-bac3-24330b920b6c@googlegroups.com> <4a536dd1-b5e5-4363-aa77-e8aadd511d37@googlegroups.com> <82825fbe-d24f-4766-af88-55d8698fa945@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:55:35 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b34329a430b7604df99a7fd X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b34329a430b7604df99a7fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, la arxokuna wrote: > > > On Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:31:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:11 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>> >>>> I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}. People >>>> not involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or >>>> intended audience, are third person, by definition, again. A person >>>> doesn't have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't >>>> even have to be alive, apparently. >>>> >>> >>> And "we" can include third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that >>> guy over there and I) will do it". >>> >> >> mi'a >> > > > Exactly. va'i > English "we" is either {mi'a} or {mi'o} or {ma'a} *. > *or {mi} > Or in other words {mi jo'u mibdrata}. So why bind it only to the > participants of the dialog? > > >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>> >>>>> An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is >>>>> in; who else depends on context. But, since this is a first person >>>>> pronoun, those others cusku this as well (definitional). >>>>> >>>> >>>> How can they cusku if they are not in this dialog? English "we" covers >>>> {mi jo'u mibdrata}. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an >>>>>> identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. For the rest it is over >>>>>> specification in that these other things may or may not be included. {lo} >>>>>> does it's usual selection job in context. In particular, lo na'e cusku are >>>>>> not to be included, by the nature of the gadri. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says >>>>> that "we=the speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that >>>>> that other persons are to be viewed as speakers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I thought I just did. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Where is {dei} in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who >>>>>> speak or those to whom something is spoken? No. >>>>>> >>>>>> "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e >>>>>> cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since >>>>>>>> "we" is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group >>>>>>>> of the speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in >>>>>>> Lojban? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b34329a430b7604df99a7fd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, la arx= okuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:31:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:11 AM, la arxokuna <glek= i.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}. =A0People n= ot involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or intended= audience, are third person, by definition, again. =A0A person doesn't = have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even = have to be alive, apparently.

And "we" can include= third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that guy over there an= d I) will do it".

mi'a


Exactly. va'i
English "we" is either {mi'a} or {mi'o} or {ma'= ;a} *.

*or {mi}
=A0
Or in other words {mi jo'u mibdrata}. So why bind it only to the p= articipants of the dialog?

=A0
=A0


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013,= at 8:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

<= br>
On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
An English uncertainty about just who cusku? = We know the utterer is in; who else depends on context. =A0But, since this = is a first person pronoun, those others cusku this as well (definitional).<= br>

How can they cusku if they are= not =A0in this dialog? English "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata= }.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20= , 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, J= une 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. =A0{no'u= } just sounds wrong;it is not an identity, merely a predication, probably {= poi}. =A0For the rest it is over specification in that these other things m= ay or may not be included. =A0{lo} does it's usual selection job in con= text. =A0In particular, lo na'e cusku are not to be included, by the na= ture of the gadri.=A0

Don't you think that your defini= tion contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe speaker and at le= ast one other person" ? It is not said that that other persons are to = be viewed as speakers.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la = arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Thursday, Ju= ne 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I thought I just did.=A0


Where is {dei} =A0in {lo za'= u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak or those to whom= something is spoken? No.

"we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {= mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e t= e cusku be dei}


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20= , 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Wednesday, = June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Oops! =A0I probably should have said {na'= i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither. =A0It is, ho= wever, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)&= quot;, exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.


Do you think yo= u can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban?

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out<= /a>.
=A0
=A0

--
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=A0
=A0

--
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=A0
=A0

--
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=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima= lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot = Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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