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Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
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From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:12:27 -0500
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 Content preview:  But then he is involved in the dialog as a amber of us. Sent
    from my iPad On Jun 20, 2013, at 11:11, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
    wrote: [...] 
 
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But then he is involved in the dialog as a amber of us.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 11:11, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
> I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}.  People n=
ot involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or intended=
 audience, are third person, by definition, again.  A person doesn't have t=
o be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even have to be=
 alive, apparently.
>=20
> And "we" can include third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that =
guy over there and I) will do it".
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
> On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>> An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; =
who else depends on context.  But, since this is a first person pronoun, th=
ose others cusku this as well (definitional).
>>=20
>> How can they cusku if they are not  in this dialog? English "we" covers =
{mi jo'u mibdrata}.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPad
>>=20
>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>>> So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }.  {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an ide=
ntity, merely a predication, probably {poi}.  For the rest it is over speci=
fication in that these other things may or may not be included.  {lo} does =
it's usual selection job in context.  In particular, lo na'e cusku are not =
to be included, by the nature of the gadri.=20
>>>=20
>>> Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says t=
hat "we=3Dthe speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that =
that other persons are to be viewed as speakers.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>=20
>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>>>> I thought I just did.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Where is {dei}  in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who s=
peak or those to whom something is spoken? No.
>>>>=20
>>>> "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cu=
sku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei}
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>=20
>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>>>>> Oops!  I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we=
" is actually neither.  It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of t=
he speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojba=
n?
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr=
oups "lojban" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen=
d an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups "lojban" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "lojban" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send =
an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>> =20
>> =20
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =20
> =20

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>But then he is involved i=
n the dialog as a amber of us.<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Ju=
n 20, 2013, at 11:11, la arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gm=
ail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 P=
M UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div b=
gcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined aro=
und {cusku}. &nbsp;People not involved in the current utterance, either as =
intended source or intended audience, are third person, by definition, agai=
n. &nbsp;A person doesn't have to be present to fill a first or second pers=
on role, doesn't even have to be alive, apparently.</div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>And "we" can include third persons not involved in the=
 dialog. "We (that guy over there and I) will do it".</div><div>&nbsp;</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div=
><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxok=
una &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"=
D-vID9pi1QQJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 P=
M UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolo=
r=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the=
 utterer is in; who else depends on context. &nbsp;But, since this is a fir=
st person pronoun, those others cusku this as well (definitional).<br></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How can they cusku if they are not =
&nbsp;in this dialog? English "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}.</div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><di=
v><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna=
 &lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+=
4, clifford wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margi=
n-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#=
FFFFFF"><div>So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. &nbsp;{no'u} just sounds wrong;it=
 is not an identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. &nbsp;For the re=
st it is over specification in that these other things may or may not be in=
cluded. &nbsp;{lo} does it's usual selection job in context. &nbsp;In parti=
cular, lo na'e cusku are not to be included, by the nature of the gadri.<sp=
an>&nbsp;</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Don't you thin=
k that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe spea=
ker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that that other persons=
 are to be viewed as speakers.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><d=
iv><br>On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna &lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><b=
r>On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>I thought I just d=
id.&nbsp;<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Wh=
ere is {dei} &nbsp;in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who spe=
ak or those to whom something is spoken? No.</div><div><br></div><div>"we" =
is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei=
 gi'e na'e te cusku be dei}</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div>=
<br>On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna &lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>O=
n Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Oops! &nbsp;I proba=
bly should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neithe=
r. &nbsp;It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of the speaker and =
associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think.<br></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Do you think you can give a precise =
definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban?</div>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
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&nbsp;<br>
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&nbsp;<br>
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